Solid core wires

[redglbx]

So I had a moment yesterday with something to ponder. I was watching Roadkill Garage hosted by David Frieburger which I usually don’t take to seriously as it’s generally just a circus.

One thing that always amazed me is that Frieburger worked at Jacobs Electronics who in my opinion made one of the best automotive electronic ignitions at one time that was developed by Chris Jacobs PhD who wrote several books on electronics, ignitions and theory that I’ve read and learned a lot from, highly recommended reading !

So what really caught my attention yesterday is that Frieburger was having trouble with killing electronic ignitions repeatedly in his Hotrod 56 Chevy. Normally I tend to just brush this stuff off because they tend to just “hack” things together including the wiring, but at the shows end he said that while at Jacobs they realized that solid core wires like in our GL’s stock generate a lot of EMI that tends to kill transistors and resistors in the modern automotive type electronics. At which point the “light” went off and I remembered Chris Jacobs expounding on this a lot in one of his books. Frieburger converted his 56 to suppressive spiral wound plug wires that seemed to fix his ignition killing problem.

So this got me thinking about killing the ignition modules in our GL’s like in the Dyna and other electronic ignitions. I think this might have some validity because we all have heard the spark plug interference in the radio when solid core wires are used either in our own radio or the car next to us.

Now I will add that Dr Jacobs was big on minimal resistance in getting ignition power to the spark plugs, to point but with minimal EMI so he was a big proponent of spiral wound plug wires and really big on “coil-on-plug” setups, which he might have patented.

Also during this episode of Roadkill Frieburger expounded on some of the other problems that Jacobs found with solid core wires over time, I’ve always been a fan of solid core wires but have used the spiral core wires in my hot rods that I’ve ran electronic ignitions in,, so being that I’m wanting to replace the plug wires in my 76 here shortly I’m thinking of buying bulk spiral wound wire now to make them up.

As a reference solid core wires usually measure less than 1ohm , or below what most meters can measure. Spiral wound wires are usually advertised at 500 ohms/ft or less, which most I’ve measured are less. Regular suppressor type wires generally measure around 25k ohms, generally.

So what do you think about all this ? I think it has some merit and worth looking into.

[gltriker]

David Freiburger and Steve Dulcich!!

Yeah, I recall that episode. Freiburger finally realized (read the MSD instructions) the beautiful yellow insulation solid core wires he hand built were responsible for the MSD ignition controllers -at least 2? mysterious- failures at a drag strip.

Very thankful Roadkill Garage re-runs still broadcast here and David and Steve have youtube channels, too.

Done now

[redglbx]

Yep Cliff, there was a total of 5 killed, never seen that episode before, but some days I have a hard time watching them and the ridiculousness that they sometimes do.

This all has my brain thinking (dangerous) and remembering as years ago I ran the CNC Dept at South Bend Lathe when we were the first to put an IBM type controller on a machine tool. One episode in particular stands out as we had 1 machine in particular that was just eating boards and as it turns out that company had TIG machine several rooms over from our lathe and we found that the owner had tweaked the TIG for more power, we found that even with the main disconnect for the lathe turned off we could record 100-300v on the 12 & 24v lines whenever they struck an arc, with a heck of an initial spike. EMI at its best/worst!

[Sidecar Bob]

I know nothing about spiral wound spark plug wires.

I do know that the carbon impregnated string type didn't last long on my '79 GL1000 engine with points. I blamed it on the fact that they were too flexible so when used on something that has the wind blowing over the engine all the time the "conductors" fatigue from movement.

Re interference from solid core wires and electronic ignitions, I've put a lot of Km on Eccles and the GL500 I had before it, all with solid core wires and I've never had a Honda (NEC) TI module (same as on the GL1100) fail.
I did have a Dyna S module fail on the same GL1000 engine (now with solid core wires) but the replacement Dyna has lasted much longer than the one that failed so I doubt that the wires had anything to do with it.

Speaking of interference causing problems in electronics, there's a fellow in Australia who manufactures motorcycle ignition systems under the name Rae-San. His first products were replacements for the CX500 CDI system and he is active on the CX forums, often helping people figure out why they can't get his products to work (it usually turns out to be something simple). He has done a lot of experimenting and knows a lot about how ignition systems work.
Ray has mentioned a few times that he does NOT recommend the use of iridium plugs because they have no performance benefit and he has found that they generate a lot of electrical noise (he thinks it has to do with the shape of the tip).

[redglbx]

Yepper Bob, not sure on how I think on all of this. Chris Jacobs (of Jacobs Electronics) did a lot of work on all of this. As I recall (I need to reread his one book again) Jacobs was no fan of carbon core wires as they tended to break down with vibration and not conduct, he much preferred the spiral wound wires that hd a much lower resistance with good quality ones being pretty close to solid core. The carbon core could be pretty fragile with the Cheaper quality pieces.

On the EMI thing , I got a lot of exposure/experience when I ran the CNC department and was shocked at how much EMI is generated by things and how fragile some electronics are to relatively low EMI levels.

So on our GL’s, the truth is that I just don’t know and this thread was just some thoughts, may be something, may not be, I don’t know. But it may help explain some of the ignition module failures, again, I just don’t know, it requires much better & more expensive equipment than I have to prove anything out. Could be as simple as rerouting some wires .

The thing that has stuck with me from all our EMI CNC testing was as I talked about with the company that had the hopped up TIG machine where you could actually see several hundred volts on the 12 & 24v lines whenever they would strike an arc even with the lathe disconnected from the power, and the TIG machine in a separate room over a hundred feet away. It was all radiated through the air and would just kill the chips/transistors/caps/etc pretty much everytime they struck an arc. Probably wasn’t great for the humans there either.

But like I said, I don’t know for sure and is just something to think about.

[ericheath]

Speed read this, may have missed if someone pointed this out, but C5 and PowerArc insist(ed) on their plug wires for use in their optical triggered ignitions. They did not look copper or spiral bound.

[CYBORG]

I have a C5 on my 1000. Came with coil and wires. Has worked flawlessly for several years. I use carbon core wires on my 1200 . No problem for years. Both are electronic ign.

[redglbx]

Eric/Cyborg, they don’t make the C5 ignition anymore if I remember right,,just curious..and thanks for the inputs.

[CYBORG]

my understanding they no longer make it. A shame. best ign ever made in my opinion. But expensive. But worth it.

[Whiskerfish]

In 95 after I blew up my back the second time they sent me to the Avionics Division of the Aircraft Intermediate Maintenance Department at Oceana Naval Air Station for post surgery recovery. This is where they sent all the Black Boxes from the F-14 Tomcats to be fixed. This was the second line of repair for all the Communications, Navigation, Identification, and Weapons systems. Literally hundreds of Black Boxes a day would come in for repair. I was pretty senior so I did not do much hands on stuff more management but as a dumb Helicopter mechanic the learning curve for that 3 years was still very STEEP.

One of the things I learned was about "Optimizing" verses "Within Limits" and soft failures. Soft failures are when something is damaged in some way but still performs "within limits". When you power up a box on the test bench you may have 20 or 30 places in that box to take readings and make adjustments. Say at test point 11 you are supposed to have 23.4 -27.8 VDC well if it goes out the door with 23.4 VDC odds are high it will fail the tests while the jet is turning up during the pre launch tests. So you will bust a flight and the box will be returned the next day. Most times we had spares so there were no holes in Aircraft on the flight line. If we had spares on the shelf for that particular box and the work load permitted we would "Optimize" it. Every reading would be tweaked to the middle of the limits. Optimizing would take a LOT longer but it would also result in a box that would remain in service a lot longer.

This is also where EMI and ESD came into play. These soft failures is how the Navy learned about ESD and EMI. A box could be perfect on the test bench but on the flight line sitting next to another Tomcat that was turning up and warming up his radar it would fail. We had certain Helo Spots on some LClass ships that we could not get a "pass" self test for our electronic flight control systems in H-53's. It was EMI from the Ships radar. Move the Helo forward to Spot 5 from Spot 7 and it would pass just fine.

EMI and ESD have cost Billions over the years as the industry has learned how to isolate and protect sensitive electronics. Except for the "Power on" Benches every time a piece of Electronics is handled it is done by someone wearing a soft ground wrist strap. With the wrist strap we ground our bodies to eliminate any chance of a static discharge before handling ESD Sensitive circuitry. ESD Wrist straps are very common now even in PC repair shops. The learning portion of this was especially painful and frustrated Engineers and technicians.

So yes I do believe that computerized/ sensitive ignition system failures are quite possibly self induced by not understanding the effects of EMI.

[ericheath]

redglbx

I know C5 isn’t in business, but Power Arc is. They sell ones for 750’s that can be adapted, but not out of the box. I only posted it to reinforce that the EMI or fly back is safer with the newer “wire.” Copper lasts many times longer, but it has its drawbacks. PowerArc suggests their wire and still sell it. I put spiral core on my 77 stock bike but couldn’t tell any difference.

[redglbx]

Great discussions guy’s, thanks !

Steve, I forgot about the wrist ground straps we had to wear, they were a pita but necessary, hard to convince someone that is was a “real” deal. When we were first getting into the PC controls thing somebody at Lathe Works had contacted someone at the government who sent in experts to help teach us about stuff. EMI and static discharge were a couple of the things they talked about and I’ll never forget the static discharge demonstration where the guy basically zapped a board just touching it.

Instrumentation attached showed a shot of voltage at 30k volts, it was only milliseconds long but the damage was done. I was a believer in the wrist grounds. Interesting stuff.