Timing belts don't like oil!

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sebastien
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Timing belts don't like oil!

#1

Post by sebastien »

Hi all,

I managed to get my '77 GL1000 out for a ride last week. Was riding along, beautiful day, when the engine just stalled like that. Luckily, traffic was low, so I had enough momentum to park the bike and was only 1 mile from my destination, so finished the trip on foot.

As I was walking, I was really wondering what could possibly have gone wrong; no idea at the time...I thought maybe the primary chain had snapped, but, how likely is that to happen? Then I thought it might be the timing belts, but I knew they were quite recent; turns out they only were 2 years old and had 5000 miles on them.

Cranked the engine in the garage and noticed that the points timing cam was moving, but not circularly, and certainly not all the way around. That's when I thought one of the belts had broken, but then why would there be L cam movement?

Once the belts were exposed, I noticed that many teeth had fallen off. There has been an oil leak inside the belts compartment for some time, but I didn't think it was that big of a deal and hadn't taken the time to fix it. Turns out the oil had weakened the belts, in particular the L one, and sheared off numerous teeth. The tooth-free section of the L belt was on the crank pulley and so the belt wasn't doing much.

New belts have been ordered and will be here soon. Meanwhile, I had a set of old belts from my parts bike, that I installed to see if I hopefully hadn't destroyed something in the messed-up timing that my engine suffered for a few short moments. I loosened the valve tappets completely on both sides, in order to turn the crank and cams to their appropriate positions to slip the new belts on.

Oddly, when I went to set valve tappet clearance, cyls 1 and 2 were normal and easy, but cyls 3 and 4 were impossible to slip the feeler gauge. I ended up bending the gauge in the process; that's how impossible it was. As a result, I "went by feel" and made the tappets look like the front cyl ones. I didn't check or adjust the timing after all this (I know, probably should've).

The bike started and ran, not great, but it did. The R side headers were warmer than L side. I guess if the timing was checked and set it would've run better.

Now, I'm seriously wondering why valve tappets were impossible to adjust for cyls 3 and 4... Hopefully I don't have to swap my parts bike's engine but if I have to, at least I have a spare. Thoughts? Thanks for reading and hope riding weather has arrived wherever you are. Here, it's going to be another wait; for the weather and aforementioned mechanical issues :)

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1977 GL1000, 1981 GL500, 1984 Yamaha XS400J, 2009 DR650 (sold), 2004 Yamaha V-Star 650 (sold), 2001 Suzuki Bandit 1200 (sold), 2004 Honda CG125 (sold)
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gltriker
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Re: Timing belts don't like oil!

#2

Post by gltriker »

sebastien wrote: Mon Feb 26, 2024 12:09 am Hi all,
snip-
. I loosened the valve tappets completely on both sides, in order to turn the crank and cams to their appropriate positions to slip the new belts on.

snip-
Oddly, when I went to set valve tappet clearance, cyls 1 and 2 were normal and easy, but cyls 3 and 4 were impossible to slip the feeler gauge. I ended up bending the gauge in the process; that's how impossible it was. As a result, I "went by feel" and made the tappets look like the front cyl ones. I didn't check or adjust the timing after all this (I know, probably should've).

snip-
Now, I'm seriously wondering why valve tappets were impossible to adjust for cyls 3 and 4...


20240224_130143.jpg20240224_130149.jpg20240224_130153.jpg
You may have been using the 1T flywheel mark (cylinders 1 and 2) to set the cylinder numbers 3 and 4 valve clearances, too?

2T is the correct flywheel timing mark to use for cylinders 3 and 4 .

note: cylinders' firing ( + valve clearance setting) order is 1, 3, 2, 4 .
question! do you know the proper cylinder positions' location orientation?

viewtopic.php?t=43642
Last edited by gltriker on Mon Feb 26, 2024 11:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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gltriker
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Re: Timing belts don't like oil!

#3

Post by gltriker »

Roady had contributed his *Valve Clearance Adjustment, How-To* tutorial into the Shop Talk library:

viewtopic.php?t=7436
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Shadowjack
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Re: Timing belts don't like oil!

#4

Post by Shadowjack »

Both belts failed, and now you can't adjust the tappets on the rear cylinders? Sounds like bent valves there. You're never supposed to rotate the crank without the belts, even by hand, without encountering piston/valve interference.
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Re: Timing belts don't like oil!

#5

Post by gltriker »

Agreed with Shadowjack's assessment of your stripped teeth timing belts report. tumb2

A full session with a cylinder compression testing gauge is indicated now.
Better yet!
:oldies individual Cylinder Pressure Leakdown Rate testing is more precise...
https://www.ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic ... 85#p810585 crossy.gif

YES, there are far less precise methods to ball park locate damaged sealing components... "bent" valves... damaged piston top

VERY IMPORTANT! Keep fingers away from exposed PINCH/CRUSH Timing Belts and Pulleys Before and During the insertion of pressurized air into a Tested Cylinder!! AND be 100% clear the transmission has been/ IS selected to NEUTRAL, TOO!
Last edited by gltriker on Thu Jun 27, 2024 2:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Old Fogey
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Re: Timing belts don't like oil!

#6

Post by Old Fogey »

Our belts have to be run dry, but there are engines, like my Skoda, where the belts actually run in oil.Belt change is 150k miles.
However, ask Ford how that has worked for their 3 cylinder Ecoboost!!
Last edited by Old Fogey on Thu Mar 07, 2024 8:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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sebastien
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Re: Timing belts don't like oil!

#7

Post by sebastien »

Shadowjack wrote: Mon Feb 26, 2024 8:48 am Both belts failed, and now you can't adjust the tappets on the rear cylinders? Sounds like bent valves there. You're never supposed to rotate the crank without the belts, even by hand, without encountering piston/valve interference.
Yeah, I'm afraid so. Dang, that's going to be expensive and take lots of time. Strange how the engine still managed to run, no? I guess compression and leak down tests are next... Will keep y'all posted...
1977 GL1000, 1981 GL500, 1984 Yamaha XS400J, 2009 DR650 (sold), 2004 Yamaha V-Star 650 (sold), 2001 Suzuki Bandit 1200 (sold), 2004 Honda CG125 (sold)
sebastien
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Re: Timing belts don't like oil!

#8

Post by sebastien »

gltriker wrote: Mon Feb 26, 2024 9:06 am Agreed with Shadowjack's assessment of your stripped teeth timing belts report. tumb2

A full session with a cylinder compression testing gauge is indicated now.
Better yet!
:oldies individual Cylinder Pressure Leakdown Rate testing is more precise...

https://www.ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic ... &start=360
post#364 crossy.gif

YES, there are far less precise methods to ball park locate damaged sealing components... "bent" valves... damaged piston top

VERY IMPORTANT! Keep fingers away from exposed PINCH/CRUSH Timing Belts and Pulleys Before and During the insertion of pressurized air into a Tested Cylinder!! AND be 100% clear the transmission has been/ IS selected to NEUTRAL, TOO!
thanks gltriker, that is a beautiful post #364 right there
1977 GL1000, 1981 GL500, 1984 Yamaha XS400J, 2009 DR650 (sold), 2004 Yamaha V-Star 650 (sold), 2001 Suzuki Bandit 1200 (sold), 2004 Honda CG125 (sold)
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Re: Timing belts don't like oil!

#9

Post by pidjones »

Another thing that no belts like is rust. Make sure a dry belt pulley is rust-free before installing new belts. rust must be very abrasive to them. I ate a brand new John Deere (IE $$$$) deck belt on my garden tractor y not checking for rust on the pulleys. after wire wheel cleanup, belts lasted great!
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sebastien
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Re: Timing belts don't like oil!

#10

Post by sebastien »

pidjones wrote: Mon Feb 26, 2024 3:42 pm Another thing that no belts like is rust. Make sure a dry belt pulley is rust-free before installing new belts. rust must be very abrasive to them. I ate a brand new John Deere (IE $$$$) deck belt on my garden tractor y not checking for rust on the pulleys. after wire wheel cleanup, belts lasted great!
Good to know, I'll clean the area up real good this time, thanks pidjones
1977 GL1000, 1981 GL500, 1984 Yamaha XS400J, 2009 DR650 (sold), 2004 Yamaha V-Star 650 (sold), 2001 Suzuki Bandit 1200 (sold), 2004 Honda CG125 (sold)
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Re: Timing belts don't like oil!

#11

Post by RSTman »

In addition to the repairs due to failing belts the source of the oil leak needs fixing. Possibly a new crank oil seal and/or camshaft oil seals will be required. Some or all have been leaking pretty bad to contaminate the belts?
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Re: Timing belts don't like oil!

#12

Post by redglbx »

One thing that will talk to you about damages here, did any of the valves have excessive clearances when you tried to adjust them ? If so, those are probably bent from contact with the piston(s) and will need replacing. Luckily Honda used the finest grade of rubber to make their valves so usually there’s only a small ding in the piston, I would not continue to try to run or turnover this motor because it may just cause more damage including bending rods at which point the motor just becomes a paper weight imho.

In this case one of our members here posted about a head refurbishing service by someone which in this case might be the cheapest/easiest way to fix things. Many years ago on a ride with my brother I broke the LH timing belt and the motor just stopped running because the left cam & ignition were no longer turning.

On my bike it was clean in the belt housing area, there was only about 13k miles on the bike and belts BUT it was all 20+ years old !!! It’s all about age not mileage, change those belts ! And things need to be clean & dry in that area.

By the way , when my belt broke it was about 2010, 2011 and with me doing all the labor it still ended up costing me around $400 in 2020 money just for parts. Good luck and let us know.
Last edited by redglbx on Sun Jun 30, 2024 8:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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sebastien
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Re: Timing belts don't like oil!

#13

Post by sebastien »

Hey all,
Here's a little update on where we're at.

First order of operations was to fully clean up the timing belt area and, while I was at it, I decided to upgrade the pulleys; after all, I'd bought a pair of Gates T42015 a few years ago and needed an excuse to do the job. She was looking so pretty
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I followed the advice received here, thanks again, guys, to find out that I had 0 compression and 100% leak down in the left cylinders!
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So, in an attempt to save some money, I decided to swap engines with my 1976 parts bike, plus I'd get to see how well this other engine ran and take my sweet time fixing the 1977 engine. Here she is with the 76 engine in.
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Finally, it was time to finish the GL1100 carb rebuild started 2 years ago and left on pause 95% of the way to the finish line. (This bike originally came with GL1100 carbs which were in no condition to run, so I installed the 76 carbs on it instead once I bought the spare parts bike)

I even got a pro paint job on parts while all this work was going on and here's how it looks today; the colour is Volvo Denim Blue...I could use some decals...Somebody have a cheap supply?


20240616_180932 (1).jpg
At the moment, I'm playing around with iginition. For whatever reason, cylinders 3 and 4 haven't been firing great; I can tell from way less acceleration and their headers being far less hot than the cyl 1/2 ones.

The left valve cover also leaks an irritating amount of oil, so I bought some 2nd hand motorcycling boots (my first time riding with real motorcycling boots in 20+ years of motorcycling!) so that they can take the leaking oil, instead of my shoes.

I also need to finish synching the carbs, and hopefully she'll be pretty and functional for a little summer roadtrip!

Oh, I finally got the nerve to remove the left head of the 1977 engine (That head gasket only had <3000 miles on it, plus it was OEM). Yep, the valves did indeed hit the pistons, which I will show on next post
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1977 GL1000, 1981 GL500, 1984 Yamaha XS400J, 2009 DR650 (sold), 2004 Yamaha V-Star 650 (sold), 2001 Suzuki Bandit 1200 (sold), 2004 Honda CG125 (sold)
sebastien
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Re: Timing belts don't like oil!

#14

Post by sebastien »

So here's what intake valves hitting pistons looks like. Hope those connecting rods are not bent; I guess the easiest way to find out is to ensure pistons are making it all the way to the end of the previous stroke...
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That OEM head gasket still looks good, don't you think? Has anyone attempted to just rebolt such a good looking gasket again? What are the odds it would work (after changing the two intake valves, of course)? Should I also change the valve guides; would they have been compromised?

Looking forward to you replies :)
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gltriker
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Re: Timing belts don't like oil!

#15

Post by gltriker »

sebastien wrote: Thu Jun 27, 2024 12:45 pm Hey all,
Here's a little update on where we're at.

snip-
The left valve cover also leaks an irritating amount of oil, so I bought some 2nd hand motorcycling boots (my first time riding with real motorcycling boots in 20+ years of motorcycling!) so that they can take the leaking oil, instead of my shoes.
* an overlooked part of that leaking solution
replace #20 valve cover bolt seals
Screenshot 2024-06-27 010116 - VALVE COVER BOLT SEAL.jpg
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