Throttle bodies vs throttle body

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theailer
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Throttle bodies vs throttle body

#1

Post by theailer »

Hi
Stumbled on this today:
Image
https://www.yuminashi.eu/30mm-throttle- ... y-crf110f/
It is a 30mm throttle body with a injector port for a small bike.
Would that be a good fit for a GL1100 with 4 of these throttle bodies mounted on the runners in place of the carburetors?
Been wanting for a EFI setup where most of the efi parts are somewhat hidden since I think the motor and original runners look beautiful.
And this would allow sequential firing of the injectors as well if it works with the injectors being a bit further from the valves.
Guessing it will be hard to get the throttle linkage to be setup when using 4 throttle bodies, so another idea is to use a bigger single body but with the injectors on the same place if that makes sense.
These TB's also only have a screw for setting the idle.
Just wondering if you have any ideas of pros and cons of these setups. Not planning to do this anytime soon.
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Re: Throttle bodies vs throttle body

#2

Post by wingrider »

Anything can be made to work, but I would say you will chase your tail on making it all work. If you love how the engine and intakes look, why not get a setup from a 1200 EFI Wing, and cut the plenum down to fit the 1100? In that event, you will have what looks a bit like the carbs do currently.

Here is what they look like: 1200 EFI setup
2002 1800 Wing
2001 Valkyrie Interstate
1978 1200 EFI Wing with Motorvation Coupe Royale sidecar
1977 1200 Wing cafe/bobber project
1974 Suzuki GT550
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Re: Throttle bodies vs throttle body

#3

Post by theailer »

Yeah it was just an idea to try and hide the injectors compared to the 1200.
Also the 1200 setups don't seem to grow on trees ;)
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Re: Throttle bodies vs throttle body

#4

Post by wingrider »

I’ve got a 1200 setup looking to take a ride…. :-D
2002 1800 Wing
2001 Valkyrie Interstate
1978 1200 EFI Wing with Motorvation Coupe Royale sidecar
1977 1200 Wing cafe/bobber project
1974 Suzuki GT550
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Re: Throttle bodies vs throttle body

#5

Post by Rednaxs60 »

Check out the thread by socrace.
"When writing the Story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen."

Ernest

1985 GL1200 Limited Edition
2014 Can-Am Spyder RT LE
2021 Royal Enfield Himalayan
1995 GL1500 SE CDN Edition (sold)
2012 Suzuki DL1000 VStrom (sold)
Ontario 1985 GL1200 Limited Edition (sold)
2008 GL1800 (sold)
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theailer
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Re: Throttle bodies vs throttle body

#6

Post by theailer »

Wingrider: Haha I bet you do ;) But I'm not even sure a conversion will happen at all. My original carburetors are actually really good.

Rednaxs60: I have. Multiple times, also all the posts made by you guys as well.
Amazing stuff
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Re: Throttle bodies vs throttle body

#7

Post by wingrider »

theailer wrote: Sat Dec 30, 2023 7:48 am Wingrider: Haha I bet you do ;) But I'm not even sure a conversion will happen at all. My original carburetors are actually really good.

Rednaxs60: I have. Multiple times, also all the posts made by you guys as well.
Amazing stuff
If you are mechanically inclined, and would like a challenge, pick up a couple of the throttle bodies you linked, and see how you would make the linkage to get the throttle to open and close on all of them at the same time. You would be the first one to take this on as far as I know, but if you want play, we will certainly stick around to offer suggestions! anim-cheers1

If it was me, I would get a couple intake runners as well to help mock everything up, then think about how you will operate the throttle, get fuel to them all in the same manner, get a vacuum port for your electrical advance, and see how you will fit air filters.

Could be a very fun project!
2002 1800 Wing
2001 Valkyrie Interstate
1978 1200 EFI Wing with Motorvation Coupe Royale sidecar
1977 1200 Wing cafe/bobber project
1974 Suzuki GT550
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Re: Throttle bodies vs throttle body

#8

Post by Rednaxs60 »

Had a look at the throttle bodies for the 1200 CFI system:
Injector port.jpg
Injector port.jpg (288.98 KiB) Viewed 711 times
You will notice where the arrow points. This is the base of the throttle body and attaches to the cylinder head. Would these new throttle body assemblies attach, if so part 1 done. You would have to figure out how to do the linkage between throttle body assemblies on the same side, and between each cylinder bank. There appears to be a TPS on the throttle body assembly, would only need to use one. Injectors for the 1100 can be in the 300 cc/min range - high impedance injectors do not need an in-line resistor. Using low impedance injectors just have that added resistor requirement. If you were to use the 1200 low impedance injectors 315 cc/min, you need a 3 ohm resistor for a pair of injectors, or a 6 ohm resistor for an individual injector (only need this if you go semi-sequential or sequential).

Would recommend using a 75 mm diameter 36-1 crank trigger wheel with a Hall Effect sensor, trigger wheel sandwiched between the crankshaft timing belt pulleys.

Ignition coil driver can be a Bosch 211 4 channel unit just in case you want to do some sequential later on. COP units can be used in a wasted spark ignition setup. Fuel injectors would need to be setup with 1/3 on the same channel and 2/4 same channel as well.

Sequential fueling and/or ignition needs a second rotational input, generally from the camshaft.

Need the tuning software for the ECU of choice.

Last but not least, choice of ECU will dictate a lot.

A lot of these EFI projects start on the bench. I was too lazy to do this, jumped in feet first. Had a lot of setbacks, made mistakes, and learned a lot.

A benefit from a project such as this even if you only do a bench system, is it brings to light what the OEM has had to deal with regarding components, carb or FI models. The component data that needs to be used or found through experimentation. How a change in a component affects the engine tune, the need for a WBO2 sensor (14point7 is a good one). Example, the 1200 FI community changes out the OEM fuel injectors for similar year car injectors. Nice to do however, the car injectors work but are approximately 220 cc/min versus the 315 cc/min OEM injectors, not too much of an issue at the lower power ranges and at idle, but could lean out the engine at higher powers. The ECU does not care what the CFI system components are, but engine performance and health can be affected.

Having tweaked your curiosity, good project to embark on - lets you get some new toys to work with as well. Will take time to collect the components and get going.

I use the Speeduino Project ECU because it is open source and there is a lot going on that may be of interest to you. Mega/Micro Squirt family of ECUs are mature and development has slowed or is being kept in house, as with a lot of other ECUs on the market. The Speeduino Project ECU is not all singing and dancing, but what it does it does well. Sort of like the Suzuki V-Strom versus the BMW ADV bike. Doesn't do anything extremely well, just does everything well. No affiliation, just like the product.

I'm now into road trials, took a long time to get here. My new thread regarding this is on the Classic GW and Speeduino forums.

Don't throw in the towel yet. As long as time is not an issue, a good project to get going on. Can always pick up an inexpensive barn yard find and do the acfe racer theme with a custom EFI system to make it go. keep your daily ride for head clearing and ride enjoyment.

I will do the Canadian thing and apologize for the long post, and trust that this post does not take away from your intent.

Cheers
"When writing the Story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen."

Ernest

1985 GL1200 Limited Edition
2014 Can-Am Spyder RT LE
2021 Royal Enfield Himalayan
1995 GL1500 SE CDN Edition (sold)
2012 Suzuki DL1000 VStrom (sold)
Ontario 1985 GL1200 Limited Edition (sold)
2008 GL1800 (sold)
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theailer
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Re: Throttle bodies vs throttle body

#9

Post by theailer »

Wow!
I know that a lot of these EFI retrofits/conversion projects never come to fruition so I really appreciate you guys taking your time.
I've been leaning towards the MaxxECU Mini, mostly because it is also from Sweden. It is however double the price of a speeduino setup. I usually am more of an open source guy(all my computers run linux and I use Home Assistant for controlling my smart home stuff) so I'll look into the speeduino stuff some more.
Was thinking of using the original 1100 runners, might be possible to tap the TB for the vacuum but it looks like there is not a whole lot of room to play with.
Thing is I would be learning all from scratch except for the posts on this forum and a couple of others, I guess the challenge is what makes it fun.
Not a bad idea at all to get a cheap bike to test stuff out on first. I do have an old dirt bike that could be a test bed, single cylinder but would get me some experience with the setup.
Thanks!
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Re: Throttle bodies vs throttle body

#10

Post by theailer »

Hmm. Looking at the GL1100 runners, they also have the same screw/hole as the 1200's.
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Re: Throttle bodies vs throttle body

#11

Post by Rednaxs60 »

No worries. I am a new to this as well. Tried to educate myself with my '85 FI model CFI system, but soon realized there was a lot I did not know and had to research to learn.

The Speeduino Project has another benefit and that is that most Speeduino and Speeduino clone interface boards use the Arduino Mega 2560 microprocessor. This is an asset because if you find a different interface board, you can unplug the microprocessor and use it with the new interface board, already programmed. May have to go into the engine tuning software and do some adjusting, but don't have to go through the process from scratch. A bit of wiring to do depending on the new board.

Say you get a Speeduino NO2C - normally over 2 channel interface board and upgrade to a v0.4.4 board, transfer the microprocessor and carry on. There are interface boards that have some very nice features and can be adapted as well. Detonation EMS has some interesting products. There are contributors on the Speeduino forum that have interesting interface boards as well. A lot of the clone boards are based on the Speeduino v0.4.4 interface board and are PnP replacements.

For your intentions, would recommend the least expensive products and get the software to support then look into what components you need.

Good luck.
"When writing the Story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen."

Ernest

1985 GL1200 Limited Edition
2014 Can-Am Spyder RT LE
2021 Royal Enfield Himalayan
1995 GL1500 SE CDN Edition (sold)
2012 Suzuki DL1000 VStrom (sold)
Ontario 1985 GL1200 Limited Edition (sold)
2008 GL1800 (sold)
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theailer
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Re: Throttle bodies vs throttle body

#12

Post by theailer »

Thanks! If I do it it won't be until earliest next winter so I got time to do proper research until then.
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theailer
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Re: Throttle bodies vs throttle body

#13

Post by theailer »

Got hold of a really nasty GL1200 plenum almost complete with runners and injectors:
gl1200plenum.jpg
gl1200plenum.jpg (268.94 KiB) Viewed 456 times
So I might also join the EFI craze "soon" ;)
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Re: Throttle bodies vs throttle body

#14

Post by wingrider »

That certainly is a little crusty...it looks like you may be missing a couple of pieces on that set up, but most of it can be brought back to health fairly easy.
2002 1800 Wing
2001 Valkyrie Interstate
1978 1200 EFI Wing with Motorvation Coupe Royale sidecar
1977 1200 Wing cafe/bobber project
1974 Suzuki GT550
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Re: Throttle bodies vs throttle body

#15

Post by Rednaxs60 »

This throttle body unit will clean up nicely, see my pictures from a previous post. Depending on where you live I would get rid of the CA emission stuff. This unit gives you the passive IAC system that should work with an aftermarket ECU, it does with the Speeduino ECU.

The reed valves use cylinder vacuum to activate the reed valves for the passive IAC system. Here's a picture of the reed valve:
Reed VV and IAC Valve Air Hose.jpg
Reed VV and IAC Valve Air Hose.jpg (128.14 KiB) Viewed 442 times
You can remove the reed valves and service them, these carbon up a bit.

Lots of discussion on the older EFI threads about using an IAC system. Honda developed this passive IAC system because it was noted in the early stages of GW design that without it at idle or especially during deceleration, the engine did some unusual things, not enough combustion air to keep the engine operating correctly. This passive IAC system allows you to not worry about mounting a stepper motor. You may want to investigate an IAC system valve as well.

The unit you have has the cruise control deactivation switch by the throttle linkage. Honda designed the cruise system so that there are some 18 ways to disconnect the cruise system. I was surprised at this number as well. When in cruise, you roll the throttle back to the idle position and roll it a bit more and the switch will deactivate the cruise. Works very well. Nice way to cancel cruise when using.

Did you get the fuel rails with this? Save a lot of time and effort.
"When writing the Story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen."

Ernest

1985 GL1200 Limited Edition
2014 Can-Am Spyder RT LE
2021 Royal Enfield Himalayan
1995 GL1500 SE CDN Edition (sold)
2012 Suzuki DL1000 VStrom (sold)
Ontario 1985 GL1200 Limited Edition (sold)
2008 GL1800 (sold)
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