Pilot screws revisted

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mikenixon
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Pilot screws revisted

#1

Post by mikenixon »

Image

This is a photo of collected CBX/CB1100F/CX500/GL1100 pilot screw limiter flags, about half of what I actually have. I need to throw most of them out, and keep just a few for customers who ask for them. Very few do. There's no good reason for them.

I wrote previously about the technical aspects as well as the history of the carburetor pilot screw. What I want to explore today is how important, how impactive this lowly part is, in terms of achieving statisfying engine tune.

The pilot screw is part of the idle circuit. The idle circuit is the most important passage in the carburetor. This circuit has the most branches, the most appendages (the air cut valve, the bypass ports, the idle are bleed, and more), is the circuit most responsible for good low speed performance, and of course is the critical circuit in terms of starting and idling. And with the engine having its *least* efficient combustion at an idle, the idle circuit is the part of the carburetor most responsible for fine tuning, and the only conventionally adjustable circuit for that reason. It *has* to be adjustable. Even very slight changes in conditions demand this, which is why emissions regulations never could completely eliminate the pilot screw. 1

You already know that the feds required powersports OEMs to get coy about the pilot screw beginning with the 1978 model year. Keihin, the maker of Honda's carbs, began by putting pressed-on plastic stop-caps on the screws so as to discourage inexpert fiddling. They were easily removed. This in later years morphed into glued-on aluminum limiters and finally, in the carburetor's final stand before fuel injection took over, the screw was buried so deeply in the carb casting no one could find it, and to make sure, covered with a tiny manhole cover, making it completely invisible. Out of sight, out of mind. And a lot of subterfuge.

What many do not realize is that this devilment was for the sake of the end-user, to thwart injudicious and ill-advised adjustment in the name of emissions. It was not however intended to slow down the expert, the professional mechanic who would continue to adjust this screw as he always had. 2 Because there was and is no sanction on either Honda's part or the government's against dealers and other pros doing what was necessary. Honda even proscribed adjustment methodology and made available new replacement screws and new hidey caps and covers. 3

Among carb makers, Keihin led the emissions front with their absolutely astonishing 1 1/2 turn specification for the pilot screw setting on most of their carburetors. So adversely lean was this that in some cases the setting can actually be doubled before carbon monoxide (CO) levels reach federal limits. Go figure.

Why adjust the pilot screw to a richer setting than stock? A few reasons. One, on many carb models a slightly over-rich idle mixture greatly improves throttle response. This is the case with many of Honda's early inline fours, and also the GL1000, whose carbs are actually slightly too large and thus make the engine's intake air speed sluggish. A larger pilot setting acts like a much-needed accelerator pump in the GL1000's case. 4 Another benefit of richened pilot screw settings is realized in 40-50-year old bikes whose engines invariably have lost 20 percent or more of their cylinder compression. A greater pilot adjustment compensates for lost fuel efficiency and enhances these engines' idle smoothness. 5 Finally, even very recent Keihins such as the semi-downdraft VD and VP series, the latter being the final production carb Keihin would produce, function better with one-half turn more pilot screw than they shipped with. In short, make GL1000s 3 turns, GL1100s 2 1/2 turns, and GL1200s, GL1500s and Valkyries 3 turns. As long as the engine is stock and sound, and the carbs properly cleaned, assembled and set up, this will work well. 6

A reminder from a previous article. The air-only pilot screws on Honda's early SOHC fours and the air/fuel screws on the Gold Wings work differently. In addition to having opposite rotational references (air screws = in for richer, air/fuel screws = out for richer), the two screw types are also very differently shaped. The air screw's blunt tip means a tiny adjustment makes a large change, while the air/fuel screw's very sharp tip can be turned much more before effecting very much change. 7

One more thing. There is an important connection between throttle sync and pilot screw adjustment. Pilot screw setting affects sync. Therefore, the pilot screws must be adjusted first, before the throttles are synchronized. 8

1 Though the EPA tried. As for the starting importance, that does not apply to the GL1200, GL1500 and Valkyrie, which have stand-alone starting circuits and do not rely on the idle jet for starting.

2 It is actually an emotional moment when in carb rebuilding I spot a still-intact pilot screw stop flag on a Keihin carb in for rebuild. Think of it. It means that however many owners the bike has had, whatever kind of attention the bike did or didn't receive, in its 40-plus years of existence and use, from the moment it was removed from the shipping crate til now, the machine not once received a professionally-performed maintenance service. "Tune-up", if you prefer that word. It's a tangible thing --I can actually feel the impact of the decades of neglect. Very sad. And it shouldn't have happened.

3 New pilot screws for the GL1100 come with not-yet-installed aluminum flags, and the miniature manhole covers for the GL1200 and GL1500 can be purchased by part number, if you want them. Why you would escapes me.

4 A setting of 3 turns out, together with appropriate tuning, works so well that at that point, even an accelerator pump would not be an advantage.

5 Contrary to popular opinion and typical Internet forum fallacy, more compression makes carburetion work better (effectively richer) and less compression makes carburetion struggle (act leaner).

6 In the rare event that any of these bikes have had professionally performed top end rebuild work and thus enjoy factory-fresh cylinder compression, remove one-half turn from each of these suggestions.

7 An episode I had with my EGA this past week reminded me how very sensitive air-only pilot screws are. On my early Honda four, as you near the optimum setting, one-sixteenth turn of the screw makes a half-percent difference in CO (carbon monoxide). When the target is 3 percent, that is a lot.

8 Pilot screw affects sync, but not the other way around.
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Re: Pilot screws revisted

#2

Post by 77Gowing »

Mike, thank you so much for this. I'm soaking up the wisdom and knowledge like a super dry sponge. This does not mean I think I know what I'm about yet, but there is much good sound logic in this. I know little about carbs, but do understand the cause & effects of f/a ratios and some of the effects on engine combustion. I have been wondering if there is a book or other reading material that is a primer for carb theory & practices? I am clearly wanting in this subject matter and would love to fill this void. In our diesel labs, after I left the technicians group for the engineering office, they started using lamda meters for measurement of f/a ratios (at least this is my scketchy memory of it). Being an instrument tech for 20 yrs with lots of hands on experience was hard to walk away from for an office cube. But, I was not to be denied, I convinced my leaders to let me continue in the lab and I got to do hands on research in the same group of labs where I cut my teeth as an instrumentation puke. Theory and practice, still floats my boat.

Just had a friendly discussion & debate regarding GL carbs that had us wondering about what rich or lean meant in relation to pilot screw adjstment. I was told that it depends, which sounded arbitrary and I felt that I was missing an initial reference or first principle to know the difference. Your article has helped me find my ground reference with regard to this concept. (In instrumentation to be thorough in making adjustments correctly, one must find a reference or starting point before say running a calibration. It often is the zero volts dc of your transducer. Once you can establish your reference properly, then and only then should you adjust your span plus several other conditions must be managed).

Thank you for this very informative article.
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Re: Pilot screws revisted

#3

Post by 5speed »

do you have a camera set up in my garage? :mrgreen:
I have a Keihin carb that has been beating me up badly for the last bit. Posted a thread here looking for advice.
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=75375
I rebuilt the carb with an all balls kit which I'm starting to regret.
The carb was leaking fuel because the petcock was not working. Fixed that and decided a carb clean, rebuild would be a good idea.
It's a cvk 32 carb on a 2003 arctic cat 4x4 atv.
Someone had been there before because the starter jet was a #75 and according to my research it should have been a #60 from the factory and that is what came in the kit.
the bike will fire right up with the choke on and idle great. throttle response is okay.
Take the choke off and throttle response goes to horrible. It will bog, sputter, spit back thru the carb and sometimes will kick back on the starter.
I was made aware of a flywheel issue with these engines and checked with the owner and she had that fixed a couple of years ago.
It has a strong steady spark, fresh gas and I've tried it with the air filter on and off although it isn't plugged.
I have the pilot screw set at 2 turns out.
the plug comes out black and fouled like it's running rich but it quitting if I take the choke off has me stumped.
Any suggestions? :(
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Re: Pilot screws revisted

#4

Post by mikenixon »

5speed wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 12:30 pm do you have a camera set up in my garage? :mrgreen:
I have a Keihin carb that has been beating me up badly for the last bit. Posted a thread here looking for advice.
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=75375
I rebuilt the carb with an all balls kit which I'm starting to regret.
The carb was leaking fuel because the petcock was not working. Fixed that and decided a carb clean, rebuild would be a good idea.
It's a cvk 32 carb on a 2003 arctic cat 4x4 atv.
Someone had been there before because the starter jet was a #75 and according to my research it should have been a #60 from the factory and that is what came in the kit.
the bike will fire right up with the choke on and idle great. throttle response is okay.
Take the choke off and throttle response goes to horrible. It will bog, sputter, spit back thru the carb and sometimes will kick back on the starter.
I was made aware of a flywheel issue with these engines and checked with the owner and she had that fixed a couple of years ago.
It has a strong steady spark, fresh gas and I've tried it with the air filter on and off although it isn't plugged.
I have the pilot screw set at 2 turns out.
the plug comes out black and fouled like it's running rich but it quitting if I take the choke off has me stumped.
Any suggestions? :(
Hi, 5speed. Check the float bowl vents. You should be able to gently blow into them and hear air hissing in the carb body.
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Re: Pilot screws revisted

#5

Post by mikenixon »

77Gowing wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 10:22 amI have been wondering if there is a book or other reading material that is a primer for carb theory & practices?
Maybe... :8)
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Re: Pilot screws revisted

#6

Post by 77Gowing »

mikenixon wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 2:49 pm
77Gowing wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 10:22 amI have been wondering if there is a book or other reading material that is a primer for carb theory & practices?
Maybe... :8)
How stupid and set in my ways I am. For one, my pc is down doing recovery of 25 yrs of data, thus am reduced to visiting this forum via by cell phone which for me is way less than I deal. Couple this with the fact that I habitually avoid going down internet blind link rabbit holes, and viola! I have been standing infront of what I seek. Any closer and it would have bitten me on my candied bum.

Thank you for your kind and gracious hint. Sorry, I'm so thick.
I will gobble your links up like a hungry wolf. Whence I am back up & running with a proper pc.

Bless you and your steadfast patience with an old fool.

Kenny. Aka 77Gowing.
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Re: Pilot screws revisted

#7

Post by mikenixon »

77Gowing wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 5:39 pm
mikenixon wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 2:49 pm
77Gowing wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 10:22 amI have been wondering if there is a book or other reading material that is a primer for carb theory & practices?
Maybe... :8)
How stupid and set in my ways I am. For one, my pc is down doing recovery of 25 yrs of data, thus am reduced to visiting this forum via by cell phone which for me is way less than I deal. Couple this with the fact that I habitually avoid going down internet blind link rabbit holes, and viola! I have been standing infront of what I seek. Any closer and it would have bitten me on my candied bum.

Thank you for your kind and gracious hint. Sorry, I'm so thick.
I will gobble your links up like a hungry wolf. Whence I am back up & running with a proper pc.

Bless you and your steadfast patience with an old fool.

Kenny. Aka 77Gowing.
Not at all, Kenny. I was actually thinking of something I might have, then remembered this piece I created for MMI. It's 20 years old but you might find it interesting. I hope so.

https://www.motorcycleproject.com/about ... uretor.pdf
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Re: Pilot screws revisted

#8

Post by 5speed »

mikenixon wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 2:43 pm
Hi, 5speed. Check the float bowl vents. You should be able to gently blow into them and hear air hissing in the carb body.
Thank you Mike. anim-cheers1
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Re: Pilot screws revisted

#9

Post by 77Gowing »

mikenixon wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 6:39 pm
77Gowing wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 5:39 pm
mikenixon wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 2:49 pm

Maybe... :8)
I forget myself at times of self derision, that my irreverence of myself can stick to others. Of course I read and see you as a most kind, generous man who shares his wisdom freely. I would not dare imply you were guilty of my own error in judgement while making fun of myself.
I just carefully uploaded all the jewels of wisdom & links to my cloud space, so I can study these marvelous things. At first glance at your 20 year old presentation, it was like old home week at the propulsion testing labs for the Army. I easily recognised much of what I worked with and around. But, hardly any of my work, dealt with gasoline engines, save the 1942 Ford Gann engine, on which I worked to refurbish back in 2001. The Gann is an 1100 cid, four valve per cylinder, DOC, aluminum block & heads. My version had an electric speed governor for drive by wire speed control. The governor came to me electrically broken as deemed by a cadre of wanna be engineers. When I got it, I noticed the amphenol chassis connector still had the safety wire attached, and thus NEVER got examined. That was the key to repairing the only T23 engine governor in exhistance. Originally there were 300. Anyway, I had to contend with four giant Strohmberg carbs. Each with a needle and seat that were HUGE! Throw in leaky leather seal accelerator pumps, with built in mechanical delays and one can imagine the impossible task I had to get this baby to start and idle smootthly. The accelerator pump mechanical delay was by making the pump rod collapse into another small rod, and thus slighly delay the squirting of fuel into the venturi. Because the leather was so old, I used neatsfoot oil to soften the piston seals. It took months of trial and error before I could get her to respond to an accelerator pump boost. I got it to working about 50% of the time. But often would flameout of stoicheimentric conditions. Then it hit me, the acc pumps are now not ideal and leak internally a bit. So, I used solder, and soldered the accel piston rod slip joint shut to its maximum stroke. From then on, i had no problem haing the engine idle smoothly and throw the switch that abruptly opened the throttle to get from undraveable sliw idle of about 1000 rpm to 1400 rpm battle idle. Seat of the pants working in near blind ignorance, save my 19 yr old experience working for a cranky old English engineer in his british sports car shop. Best engineering lessons Ive ever had, but I was so young and dumb.

How stupid and set in my ways I am. For one, my pc is down doing recovery of 25 yrs of data, thus am reduced to visiting this forum via by cell phone which for me is way less than I deal. Couple this with the fact that I habitually avoid going down internet blind link rabbit holes, and viola! I have been standing infront of what I seek. Any closer and it would have bitten me on my candied bum.

Thank you for your kind and gracious hint. Sorry, I'm so thick.
I will gobble your links up like a hungry wolf. Whence I am back up & running with a proper pc.

Bless you and your steadfast patience with an old fool.

Kenny. Aka 77Gowing.
Not at all, Kenny. I was actually thinking of something I might have, then remembered this piece I created for MMI. It's 20 years old but you might find it interesting. I hope so.

https://www.motorcycleproject.com/about ... uretor.pdf
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Re: Pilot screws revisted

#10

Post by 77Gowing »

I posted the following by mistake as a correction edit...I think, thus though it is still there, is out of sequence in the thread.
Please forgive me for this error and put this in its proper sequence.
& fogive my story telling.

"I forget myself at times of self derision, that my irreverence of myself can stick to others. Of course I read and see you as a most kind, generous man who shares his wisdom freely. I would not dare imply you were guilty of my own error in judgement while making fun of myself.
I just carefully uploaded all the jewels of wisdom & links to my cloud space, so I can study these marvelous things. At first glance at your 20 year old presentation, it was like old home week at the propulsion testing labs for the Army. I easily recognised much of what I worked with and around. But, hardly any of my work, dealt with gasoline engines, save the 1942 Ford Gann engine, on which I worked to refurbish back in 2001. We were & still are a diesel house. The Gann is an 1100 cid, four valve per cylinder, DOC, aluminum block & heads. My version had an electric speed governor for drive by wire speed control. The governor came to me electrically broken as deemed by a cadre of wanna be engineers. When I got it, I noticed the amphenol chassis connector still had the safety wire attached, and thus NEVER got examined. That was the key to repairing the only T23 engine governor in exhistance. Originally there were 300. Anyway, I had to contend with four giant Strohmberg carbs. Each with a needle and seat that were HUGE! Throw in leaky leather seal accelerator pumps, with built in mechanical delays and one can imagine the impossible task I had to get this baby to start and idle smoothly. The accelerator pump mechanical delay was by making the pump rod collapse into another small rod, and thus slighly delay the squirting of fuel into the venturi. Because the leather was so old, I used neatsfoot oil to soften the piston seals. It took months of trial and error before I could get her to respond to an accelerator pump boost. I got it to working about 50% of the time. But often would flameout of stoicheimetric conditions. Then it hit me, the acc pumps are now not ideal and leak internally a bit. So, I used solder, and soldered the accel piston rod slip joint shut to its maximum stroke. From then on, i had no problem havng the engine idle smoothly and throw the switch that abruptly opened the throttle to get from undriveable slow idle of about 1000 rpm to 1400 rpm battle idle. Seat of the pants working in near blind ignorance, save my 19 yr old experience working for a cranky old English engineer in his British sports car shop. Best engineering lessons I've ever had, but I was so young and dumb." Making $2/hr more or less getting paid to learn.
God, my ignorance drove the poor man nuts. But we both learned, God bless him wherever he is.
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Re: Pilot screws revisted

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Post by mikenixon »

:)
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Re: Pilot screws revisted

#12

Post by Lucien Harpress »

I'm personally loving all these bits of carburetor information, and doing my best to soak up whatever I can. (And sort-of remember the hole I put in my finger drilling out the idle-mix caps on a Yamaha XS1100...)

I'm of the opinion that carbs are basically magic- I get them in theory, but once we start getting into specifics I'm almost immediately lost, especially when I try to apply these theories to practice.

I'm currently futzing with a set of KZ1300 carburetors, which (when compared to the GL1000 keihin carbs) seem like straightforward Mikunis, but have the added benefit of being rather unique twin barrel CV carbs with sadly little documentation. And what little documentation there is has the potential of being wrong- callouts in the service manual say a idle screw adjustment of 1.5 turns out, but nearly ever owner (myself included) can't get any cylinder to idle at less than 3 turns. Some call it a misprint, others a super-lean setting for emissions testings.

Either way, it's a fun little oddity, and something this thread reminded me of. I look forward to the next one.
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Re: Pilot screws revisted

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Post by mikenixon »

:)
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Re: Pilot screws revisted

#14

Post by 77Gowing »

I bought three sets of used GL1100 carbs. One has a little bit of reddish dust on it and the butterflies are stuck. The next one is dry and fairly clean outside with just a smattering of light tan dust. The third carb is a little dirty outside with a bit of oil or slight grease laden linkages between the carbs. I asked the seller which one he would use and he said the one with a little bit of oil/grease.
Of course, I also need to look at the carb numbers to see which matches the 1982 gl1100 engine I have. In any case, I`m going to carefully breakdown the one that has stuck butterflies, to gain much needed experience.
That said, I've an 84 1200 that will get my attention first as it runs, (2 outa four), actually 3 out of four cyls fire and she runs.
If I get into trouble with these carbs as is likely, I just may have to contract out a job.
But, I am adamant that I must try. I'm a bit used to being in uncharted territory replete with not quite a few boo boos and such. But usually get to some modicum of success. It's nice to know though that if I fail, there is a plan b.

Now, where did I park that wheelbarrow full of money or put me pot O'gold?
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Re: Pilot screws revisted

#15

Post by mikenixon »

:)
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