82 EFI Cafe Wing build

[3KidsinAustin]

Yep, that is fairly amazing. What are you using for the throttle body and the piece below the spacer that connects to each cylinder? I'm not even sure what to call that piece.

Regardless, great job and can't wait to see your progress!

[Rednaxs60]

Nice mockup. Like your thoughts on injector position.

[TheFieryMan]

Yep, that is fairly amazing. What are you using for the throttle body and the piece below the spacer that connects to each cylinder? I'm not even sure what to call that piece.

Regardless, great job and can't wait to see your progress!

Thanks man appreciate the encouragement.
The throttle body is a knock off version of the 70mm Skunk2 Alpha series for Honda B16 and B18 motors (Civic/Integra etc). Honestly it's probably way too big but it has some really nice extras and it fit.

The actual carb replacement pieces I'm just calling intake runners. Initially I planned to make each one a single machined piece of aluminum that had the same inner and outer diameter and offset as the carbs but machining them nicely was just going to cost way too much. So I decided to make the more complex section a 3D printed part and the simple straight section out of aluminum. I needed the aluminum section so that there was a place to mount the injector.

I also initially planned to design an entire new intake manifold /plenum (center section) but in the end it just made way more sense to use the original manifold and put a throttle body on top of that.

[TheFieryMan]

Nice mockup. Like your thoughts on injector position.

Those pieces are at the fab shop getting welded up right now and I'm a bit worried that they are going to do a crappy job. The aluminum tubes costed me more than I anticipated to get turned and parted off at a local machine shop. But they are beautifully done. There are only 4 so if they don't weld those bungs on nice I have to get them made again. Also those injector holders were not cheap either. Those two parts will definitely be the center piece of the whole design so if they get screwed up I'll be pretty annoyed.

IMG_2712.jpeg

Those injector holders are sweet. There's no room under the frame for a traditional fuel rail unless you stick the injectors outside the frame (but I really don't like that look) so finding these injector holders solved a major hurdle in the project. They have an NPT fitting right in the top so I can run fuel line direct to each injector from a central fuel rail elsewhere on the bike.

[Rednaxs60]

Yep, that is fairly amazing. What are you using for the throttle body and the piece below the spacer that connects to each cylinder? I'm not even sure what to call that piece.

The throttle body is a knock off version of the 70mm Skunk2 Alpha series for Honda B16 and B18 motors (Civic/Integra etc). Honestly it's probably way too big but it has some really nice extras and it fit.

Good pictures, and very nice mockup and way ahead. You are going to have a very sweet ride when the project is completed.

What fuel injectors are you going to use? Have you decided on a fuel pump?

You can never have too much air for combustion. Whichever way you proceed, you calibrate the engine VE (fuel) table to match the engine RPM/MAP combination so that you get the correct air-fuel mixture for the respective RPM/MAP combination. As you mention, this throttle body is used on Honda B16/B18 motors. You won't know until you start to tune the engine.

[TheFieryMan]

Good pictures, and very nice mockup and way ahead. You are going to have a very sweet ride when the project is completed.

What fuel injectors are you going to use? Have you decided on a fuel pump?

You can never have too much air for combustion. Whichever way you proceed, you calibrate the engine VE (fuel) table to match the engine RPM/MAP combination so that you get the correct air-fuel mixture for the respective RPM/MAP combination. As you mention, this throttle body is used on Honda B16/B18 motors. You won't know until you start to tune the engine.

I'm using Bosch EV14 injectors rated at about 308cc/min which is about double what I need but I really wanted the "shorty" style injectors so it would fit under the frame rail. So I've got way more air and way more fuel than I will need. Hopefully it doesn't make tuning too difficult.

EV-14 injector.jpeg

[Fred Camper]

Too much air or fuel is always better than not enough of either one so I suspect tuning will be reasonable with some stops build into the control.

[Rednaxs60]

308 cc/min fuel injectors will not be an issue. I suspect you will use a fuel system that operates at 43 PSI (3 bar) - won't have to derate the fuel injectors. You will be able to calibrate the VE (fuel) table to suit. The individual cylinders will draw in the required air, the VE (fuel) table is used to match the fuel to the incoming air. Only so much air can be drawn into a cylinder unless the engine has "boost".

I would expect that the engine will idle with a MAP reading in the 60 kPa range at 1100/1000 RPM. You may also see an idle ignition timing setting between 11 and 20 degrees BTDC. Ignition timing at idle can be more than the OEM specs, but it's all about ensuring the fuel peak combustion pulse (PCP) hits the piston at approximately 10 to 20 degrees ATDC for maximum power and fuel economy. The prevailing sentiment is to give the engine what it needs/wants regardless of what the OEM specs define.

[Rat]

You guys leave me waaay behind … impressed …

Gord

[Rednaxs60]

He's doing a great job.

[TheFieryMan]

Thanks for that! Very helpful.

As long as the injector holders come back from the welder looking good I'm fairly confident in the fuel system at this point. I have nearly everything I need for that aside from a few more AN connectors.

Next issue on list is the timing wheels and sensors. I'm not quite sure how I'm going to do it. My plan is to put both the cam and crank sensors under the front cover with some 3D printed brackets but it's a bit of a scary proposition since the sensors need to be in a very exact position and there are a bunch of spinning pulleys and belts flying around in there. If I had the facilities to do metal fab I think I'd be fine cutting and bending some metal to make them but I'm also kind of trying to push the 3D printing method as far as possible. I'll be using pretty robust material that is commonly used for engine parts called NylonX which is a Nylon mixed with carbon fiber. It's extremely heat resistant but it does change its shape slightly if it doesn't get annealed properly. That will be a pretty critical thing to get right.

I'm guessing I will also need to modify the front covers to fit the new timing wheels and sensors. I'm planning to refinish the covers anyway but it's still a bit of a daunting task. I thought about mounting the sensors to the cover itself as well. That might be the best option.

Ernest, can you remind me what you did for this?

Nathan

[TheFieryMan]

I was going back through some of the other EFI threads here and elsewhere and I saw that the crank pulley is two pieces and most people put their 36-1 between those two pulleys. The crank pulley is 2 5/8" so the timing wheel shouldn't need to be too much more than that but I cant find anyone making a 36-1 between 2 3/4" and 3 inches diameter. I see a 4 inch one available but its triangular teeth which I dont think will work with hall effect sensors. Spesking of Hall effect sensors, does anyone make a decent one for less than $100?!?! Thats way more money than I was planning to spend on those. I dont want to get a crappy ebay one if I dont have to since crank and cam are pretty important signals.

[3KidsinAustin]

My other project is building a Voron Trident with my daughter, just so I can run those more exotic filaments. Between her schedule and the two GL1200s I recently picked up, it has fallen to the back burner. Your post has reminded me to get back on it!

Good luck with the sensors. Regarding some of that issue, here is a link to Ernest's post on goldwingdocs. A few posts down he has a picture of the 36-1 trigger wheel and info.
https://goldwingdocs.com/forum/viewtopi ... 12&t=71394

[Rednaxs60]

I was going back through some of the other EFI threads here and elsewhere and I saw that the crank pulley is two pieces and most people put their 36-1 between those two pulleys. The crank pulley is 2 5/8" so the timing wheel shouldn't need to be too much more than that but I cant find anyone making a 36-1 between 2 3/4" and 3 inches diameter. I see a 4 inch one available but its triangular teeth which I dont think will work with hall effect sensors. Spesking of Hall effect sensors, does anyone make a decent one for less than $100?!?! Thats way more money than I was planning to spend on those. I dont want to get a crappy ebay one if I dont have to since crank and cam are pretty important signals.

the bank trigger wheel needed is a 36-1 75mm wheel. Web site address: https://www.ebay.ca/itm/274413145796?_s ... R9zG7fiqZQ

This is sandwiched between the crankshaft timing belt pulleys. Need a picture of this area.

The Hall effect sensors I use are Cherry GS100701. Two for $75.00 USD. I purchased these from Jameco - www.jameco.com. Web site: https://www.jameco.com/z/GS100701-Cherr ... 12401.html
Picture of the trigger wheel sensor:

Crankshaft hall Effet Sensor Installed.JPG

This Picture is of the timing mark mod - no oil to contend with. The 1200 engine has two crankshaft sensor positions. The carb models use the upper and lower positions, the FI models only use one - either the lower or upper. You can see the trigger wheel sandwiched between the two crankshaft timing belt pulleys:

OEM 8 Tooth Triger Wheel and titiming engine case pointer installed .JPG

The Cherry GS100701 is a compact sensor. Has an integral magnet meaning that you just plug and play:

Hall Effect - Cam Trigger .JPG

If you are going sequential fuel and/or ignition you will need a camshaft signal (1/2 crank speed) you can use a crank trigger wheel from a 1200 FI model - 8 tooth. Works just as well as a 36-1 trigger wheel.

The timing belt covers are not affected by the installation of a trigger wheel between the crankshaft timing belt pulleys.