Engines and carbs: choices, choices, choices

[Track T 2411]

My stepson and I did a bit of bench racing the other day, and it really got me to thinking about the direction of my long-term project, 'The Jalopy.' I have the original '79 engine and carbs, in unknown but clean, and seemingly operable condition, a set each of '76 and '77 carbs that are in rebuildable condition, a pair of '77 heads (hotter cams than the '79's), three 1100 engines and multiple carb racks, and finally an '84 1200 engine and carbs in unknown but clean and seemingly operable condition. I do plan on some frame and suspension mods/ upgrades, with the goal of a bike night "Hot Rod" if you will. (I just want to be an old bald guy cruising around on an old, not so normal, slightly loud and maybe nasty Wing )
I do have pretty much everything I would need to mix/ match any combination of the above, and the expense would be comparable across the board. So, the options seem to be, stock '79. '79 with early cams and carbs. Stock 1100. 1100 with '76 cams and carbs. Stock 1200. 1200 with early 1000 cams and carbs.

Which way would you go, and why?

[Shadowjack]

No replacement for displacement. Lotta work, though.

[wingrider]

My 77 has a 84 1200 block in it, but it also has 77 heads and cams…that is where mine changes.

[dontwantapickle]

Personally, I would keep the stock 79. carbs, cams, ect.
and just customize the bike to fit my taste.

Why?
because not only would it be the easiest and cheapest way to go, but it will perform the best for what you are planning to do with it.
The smooth torque of the 79's is really pretty nice, not just for cruising two up, but also for a bit of the bike night showing off.
You know, quick take offs, the occasional burnouts...

If you were actually going to be racing it, then I would say to use the bigger cams and carbs or go with the 1200,
but since that couple of mile per hour difference isn't going to matter, I say K.I.S.S.

All of the mixing and matching that can be done with these engines is interesting (and fun) but there is always the potential to open up a can of worms.

Hotrods come in all shapes and sizes, the worst are the ones that have been so highly modified that they don't run right.
The stock engines perform great when set up right and that's where I would focus my attention.

Also, when you're at the bike show, no one really cares what cams and carbs are on your bike,
only that it runs as good as it looks.

IMHO, of course.

[rcmatt007]

I agree with dontwannapickle... 78/9's are great for cruising, but my Ltd is kick ass fast (er). But for the ride my stock 86 has all of them hands down

[Track T 2411]

Thanks for the input so far!
This bike will most likely never see two- up riding. My Lady is more into quiet comfort, and loves our '86 Aspy. This one's my bike, lol!

I want to do something a bit different with the frame (it's still in the 'cypherin' stages) and engine choice will have some influence on the particular details. Dropping in the 1200 or 1100 would be essentially no different than keeping the 1000 engine in that regard. Swapping the cams and carbs from the 1000 to the 1100 would only necessitate losing the OEM 1100 electronic ignition, so I'd just keep the '78-79's wiring harness and do a Dyna type ignition.
The 1200's electronic ignition is a bit more complicated, but not a significant hurdle for me (I think). I'd have to learn a bit more about how it's wired and how it works, but learning something new is always good right? I would also probably dive into eliminating all the extra smog stuff on the 1200 carbs, but there's plenty of info on that process as well.
Building the 1200 with '76 heads, cams, carbs, and Dyna type ignition simplifies the electrical portion (and maybe the carbs), but requires modifying the pistons somewhat for valve clearance. While I'm sure I'm capable, that might be more than I want to tackle.
Hacking up a frame would be a first for me. I'm game, and I really want to do it. I might screw it up, but I have backups, lol. The engine, carb, and electrical stuff is more like baking a cake from scratch; I've followed similar recipes in the past. I just want the frosting to look and taste as good as the cake! (Or maybe the engine is the cake, and I want it to taste and look as good as the frosting?)

That's the long version of what's rolling around in my head, and the reason for the query. All advice is welcome!

[ericheath]

Straight swap of the 1200. Keep the 1200 heads- cams- carbs. Need to swap the output shaft of the 1200 with one from a 1000 or 1100 as you need a snap ring groove for the drive shaft. Since you have to pull the rear cover to do it, you can assess the clutch and stator. You will need to mod the frame a little for the 84 ignition. I don’t think the 1200 air cleaner will work either. The drop in gearing will make it very quick on the bottom end. 84 has slightly different top end gearing to help with mileage some.

[Shadowjack]

Most of the headache and fooling around when I put an 85 1200 engine into a 75 1000 frame was cutting and fitting the airbox and upper support plate around the stock 1200 induction and ignition. Also, none of the cables went in without a fight, either.

[wingrider]

If you want it to be a hot rod, go 1200 into the 1000 frame. I like the idea of the 1000 heads for the use of the electronics, then you can take it off the back of the 84 engine, and your install will be much easier. Fly cutting the pistons isn't hard, and if you really want to hot rod it, sell off some of your parts to pick up a set of Weber carbs (or clones) and Randakk manifolds, and let the hot rod shine!

If you want it to be a sleeper, then put the 1200 with 1000 heads, and make a set of carbs work.

Just my .02 cents in the armchair race.

[gregforesi]

"I just want to be an old bald guy cruising around on an old, not so normal, slightly loud and maybe nasty Wing"

I can do that.

[dontwantapickle]

A long time ago when building race cars, I picked up a mindset that has carried over to bikes.
The race shop was split in two, one part focused on the cars, the other on the drivelines.

Today, I view fixing up bikes as two separate projects that culminate in a motorcycle.
The Bike... and The Engine.

I would concentrate my efforts into building a cool bike that performs well.
A hotrod engine can always be installed later.

[redglbx]

Don, I totally agree ! Most people (me included) tend to focus on hopping the motor up without any focus at all to things like handling and braking. I kinda took that approach with my 76,,,,, But I’ll add that when it comes to being factory oe some believe that is the only way to go. After spending nearly 30yrs working in an oe supplier I personally don’t buy into that because they are severely compromised by their designs, the unknowing executives who only care about making more money and the worst compromises being with the accounting groups due to them not wanting to spend any money so long as it performs long enough to get out of the warranty period, they don’t care about performance or a better product so long as they get their bonus’s.


And after that rant I’ll add that all the same things apply to the aftermarket suppliers and they really aren’t concerned with warranty periods.

So concentrate on making the bike ride, stop & handle well first so you can enjoy it first & foremost as Don said.

Now at some point I’ll expound on the 1200 Hotrod motor I modeled on a computer program years ago that I used to do my 76. Jetting has a big impact as the factory jetting is not very good.

On the 75-77 carbs I have found the following to work best:

#35 idle jets,,, leave them alone, the bike will run cleaner with an a/f ratio in excess of 15-1

Primary Mains 62 stock on the 76-77, 65 on the 75, I use the #65 across the board which tends to clear up the midrange hesitations and softness. It combined with the idle jet stays in effect to around 2200rpm before the secondary main starts to come in.

Secondary Mains, 75=125’s and the 76-77’s were 120’s, I have found these to be way rich and with the combined idle, pri mains they give you an a/f ratio in the 11-1 range,, pig rich. I prefer to use a #115 sec main to lean things out a bit and improve the a/f ratio to around 12.9-13.2 af ratio, much better. And will improve the fuel economy noticeably.

The last change is to the air jet in the brass elbow, stock is a 115 and I replace that with a #110 to also richen the midrange a bit.

I ran this combo in my 76 Red bike for quite a while with no complaints before converting to the current 1100 carbs which by the way run a #140 main vs the oe #145.

I also run the above combo in my 76 LTD and have for many years now, and on a steady cruise it will typically return a fuel number in the 45-52mpg range,, all depending of course on the spirit in the right hand.

That’s what I do, my .02

[Track T 2411]

Thanks again for the detailed replies. Function versus Form is a delicate balance. A few of the frame mods I have in mind (remember, I'm just a 'practical' engineer, so "makes sense to me" is my modus operandi) are 'form' motivated while others should improve overall handling. All in all, I might be trading too much function to get the 'look' I want.
Now that your input has kind of reopened that can of worms for me, I'll be spending some time researching track, trail and all that good stuff to see how 'impractical' my ideas might be...
I'm purposely being vague about the frame mods because a picture is worth a thousand words, and I'm not close enough to digging into it to have any pics/ diagrams/ mockups. Deciding what engine carb combo I go with may influence the way particular mods are done so I kind of want to be happy with my first choice.
Thanks again for indulging me! Keep it coming!

[tory]

For what it's worth, the 1982 1100s are known to be the quickest of all wings. 83 being the sluggish. No doubt due to gear ratio.
I always dreamed of a 77 with an 82 1100 motor, using 75-76 heads and cams. Either staying with 75-76 carbs. But if I'm just dreaming anyway. Bump it up with either duel webers or a super charger for the shock factor. Lol

[Sidecar Bob]

Re form vs function, if you make it work right it will always look right but if it doesn't work right it doesn't matter what it looks like.

I read a book about how to build hotrod cars many years ago that had a whole chapter about why improving the handling was far more important than top speed or increasing horsepower if you were going to use it on the street.

Oh, and if you really just want something different that gets attention forget all that stuff and add a sidecar. We have something called "Sidecar Delay Factor", which refers to the time spent talking to people you find waiting in parking lots &c to ask you about it.