LTD Won't Stay Lit

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kjmarti2
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Re: LTD Won't Stay Lit

#31

Post by kjmarti2 »

desertrefugee wrote: Mon Nov 02, 2020 8:20 pm You really do need to run an external fuel IV bottle. An old lawnmower tank would work just fine. If necessary, go to your local auto parts store and get the appropriate fuel line to mate the two, but there’s not much to it. Just hang it up several feet higher than the carburetors and you will know in about 20 seconds whether you have a fuel delivery problem or not.

Then, as suggested above, a flow test would be reasonable from the fuel pump. It is meticulously described in the factory service manual. Less perfectly in various aftermarket manuals, but close enough.
Yep, I agree. That'll be my next test. Everything so far has checked out, just verified that my spark looks good all around. I've never been so upset that so many things are working properly.

I got it to idle pretty easily tonight and got excited thinking it was solved by my ignition timing tweaks. Hopped on and didn't even make it down the street lolol The thing stalls under pretty much any load which I didn't know until tonight.
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redglbx
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Re: LTD Won't Stay Lit

#32

Post by redglbx »

Something I haven’t seen mentioned is the gas cap, you may have a non-venting cap that’s plugged, try a different cap or take the one on the bike loose, it may be creating a vacuum in the tank & not allowing the fuel to flow.
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Re: LTD Won't Stay Lit

#33

Post by 77Gowing »

redglbx wrote: Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:31 am Something I haven’t seen mentioned is the gas cap, you may have a non-venting cap that’s plugged, try a different cap or take the one on the bike loose, it may be creating a vacuum in the tank & not allowing the fuel to flow.
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2014 Yamaha 950 V Star (sold)
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kjmarti2
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Re: LTD Won't Stay Lit

#34

Post by kjmarti2 »

desertrefugee wrote: Mon Nov 02, 2020 8:20 pm You really do need to run an external fuel IV bottle. An old lawnmower tank would work just fine. If necessary, go to your local auto parts store and get the appropriate fuel line to mate the two, but there’s not much to it. Just hang it up several feet higher than the carburetors and you will know in about 20 seconds whether you have a fuel delivery problem or not.

Then, as suggested above, a flow test would be reasonable from the fuel pump. It is meticulously described in the factory service manual. Less perfectly in various aftermarket manuals, but close enough.
I did the external fuel tank test last night, and it seems the problem is indeed something in the fuel filter/pump circuit. It's really puzzling because those parts are brand new OEM.

I'm planning to do a fuel pump volume test this evening, will report back with what I find.
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gltriker
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Re: LTD Won't Stay Lit

#35

Post by gltriker »

Yes. The new fuel pump may have not been installed correctly. Completely. Satisfactorily. ?
As you may already understand, the mechanical fuel pump 'arm' is actuated by a unique eccentric lobe at the rear end of the right side camshaft.
Maybe not understood though. :-?
Cliff (74yrs ;) )

Keep your eyes and ears open and you'll learn something new, everyday. tumb2

New users please visit our "Shop Talk" for common tips and help: <---jdvorchak
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RE: a thorough fuel tank cleaning
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kjmarti2
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Re: LTD Won't Stay Lit

#36

Post by kjmarti2 »

gltriker wrote: Sat Nov 07, 2020 1:00 am Yes. The new fuel pump may have not been installed correctly. Completely. Satisfactorily. ?
As you may already understand, the mechanical fuel pump 'arm' is actuated by a unique eccentric lobe at the rear end of the right side camshaft.
Maybe not understood though. :-?
I did some work on this tonight and left with more questions than answers..

Thought I'd check the installation of the fuel pump first, and it came off much easier than I remember it should. So I put it back on and heard a nice pop. Twisted it on so it seated nicely. Great, it's probably an easy solution to this whole mess. Started it up and it idled great. Took it down the street to test it under load, and it's back to the sputtering, no throttle response, barely holding on for dear life symptoms. Excellent. I try to do a bit of idling immediately when I get it back in the garage and it's terrible. It dies if I release the throttle, the works.

So I got everything ready for the fuel volume test. External tank to carbs, fuel tank to pump, pump outlet to a container. The manual specs say that I should be getting about 450 cc of fuel per minute at 3000 rpm. So I get a container that has more than double that and set my stopwatch. About 30 seconds in, the container is full! This thing pumped about 925 cc of fuel in about 35 seconds, which accounting for time and volume is like 4 times the rate of what is listed in the manual. I had a hard time holding 3000 rpm exactly so I might have averaged a little more, but we're talking maybe a hundred. So, 3100 or maybe 3200. Nowhere near enough to account for a 4x fuel flow difference.

I'm very confused and frustrated here. I did notice that there seemed to be misfires or some kind of not normal noise when I was holding it at 3000 rpm for the test. Seems like that would point to something non-fuel related like ignition timing or belt teeth placement, both things I've gone over more than once. Maybe I just don't know how to do those things correctly, I dunno.
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Barrie
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Re: LTD Won't Stay Lit

#37

Post by Barrie »

Just to be sure, did you also test the gas cap?

If so, it looks like the fuel delivery system is functioning properly( assuming too much pressure doesn't explain the issue?). Then I'd inspect the dyna closer. The problem I had with it appeared also when the motor warmed up and at higher RPM. Maybe it has something to do with the hall sensors in the pickup not functioning properly, and this worsening when they warm up because of some interaction between heat and the magnetic field. If you still have the old points ignition, try that, and see if the problem goes away?
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Re: LTD Won't Stay Lit

#38

Post by robin1731 »

What do the plugs look like?

Did you happen to pull the air filter housing lid and look in to the carb plenum?

If the pump is pumping too much fuel maybe it is over powering the float valve assemblies and flooding the engine.

That might also explain why it didn't run great on the pump volume test. Plug were starting to foul.
.
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Re: LTD Won't Stay Lit

#39

Post by redglbx »

One of the things I learned not all that long ago was that the check balls in the fuel pump tend to stick when a fuel pump sits to long sometimes. That being the case may mean that it’s over pressuring the float valves and as Robin mentioned it would be prudent to check the plenum gasket. Also did you try running it with the gas cap off at all? Just some stuff to check,
Red 1976 oe owner
1976 LTD restored
1980 CBX , in the que, to fix the ignorant heavy handed owner
1981 CBX
1977 CB750 K7
2014 FJR OE owner, sold
1980 GL1100
1984 GL1200 naked
1969 CL350, in the que
kjmarti2
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Re: LTD Won't Stay Lit

#40

Post by kjmarti2 »

robin1731 wrote: Sat Nov 07, 2020 9:54 am What do the plugs look like?

Did you happen to pull the air filter housing lid and look in to the carb plenum?

If the pump is pumping too much fuel maybe it is over powering the float valve assemblies and flooding the engine.

That might also explain why it didn't run great on the pump volume test. Plug were starting to foul.
.
The plugs were new before I started it up the first time, but they are all carbon fouled now so they'll need to be cleaned. The plenum gasket looks fine, I took a picture for more experienced eyes than mine.
20201107_113120.jpg
20201107_113120.jpg (182.23 KiB) Viewed 204 times
redglbx wrote: Sat Nov 07, 2020 12:54 pm One of the things I learned not all that long ago was that the check balls in the fuel pump tend to stick when a fuel pump sits to long sometimes. That being the case may mean that it’s over pressuring the float valves and as Robin mentioned it would be prudent to check the plenum gasket. Also did you try running it with the gas cap off at all? Just some stuff to check,
I did run with the gas cap off and didn't notice a difference, but I didn't test it under load. If I am getting to much fuel from the pump, what exactly can I do about it? Anything other than buying (another) new one? Not sure how to check the balls like you mention.
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77Gowing
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Re: LTD Won't Stay Lit

#41

Post by 77Gowing »

I've been reading with interest. I'm with you brother, I know it's frustrating but keep at it.
Never miss an opportunity to learn something new.

Regarding "New" stuff. Even "New stuff" fails from time to time.

Best of luck.
Keep at it!
"Less is More" Anonymous

77Gowing
1977 GL1000 "O'le Blue." (sold :crying)
2014 Yamaha 950 V Star (sold)
2017 Indian Scout Std w/ABS (sold)
2009 Honda VTX1300R "Me Brudder's" (sold)
1984 Honda Interstate "84' 2outa4." Gone
1982 Honda GL1100 "After thought." Gone
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Re: LTD Won't Stay Lit

#42

Post by pidjones »

As I remember, the GL1000 and GL1100 fuel pumps use phenolic valves, not spring loaded balls.
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Re: LTD Won't Stay Lit

#43

Post by robin1731 »

kjmarti2 wrote: Sat Nov 07, 2020 3:38 pm
robin1731 wrote: Sat Nov 07, 2020 9:54 am What do the plugs look like?

Did you happen to pull the air filter housing lid and look in to the carb plenum?

If the pump is pumping too much fuel maybe it is over powering the float valve assemblies and flooding the engine.

That might also explain why it didn't run great on the pump volume test. Plug were starting to foul.
.
The plugs were new before I started it up the first time, but they are all carbon fouled now so they'll need to be cleaned. The plenum gasket looks fine, I took a picture for more experienced eyes than mine.

That tells a lot right there. Better to put in new plugs. Once fouled they are not very good. Especially when trying to diagnose an issue like this.

.
1976 Goldwing Super Sport
1985 Honda Elite
1976 KZ900 Dragbike
1992 ZX7 Dragbike (KZ900 style motor w/NOS)
and a rotation of various purchases
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gltriker
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Re: LTD Won't Stay Lit

#44

Post by gltriker »

Buy or borrow one of this type low pressure fuel pump test gauge set. tumb2

https://www.amazon.com/Lisle-20300-Vacu ... B000CODRFO
Cliff (74yrs ;) )

Keep your eyes and ears open and you'll learn something new, everyday. tumb2

New users please visit our "Shop Talk" for common tips and help: <---jdvorchak
http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/page/ST
^^^^^^^click up here^^^^^ :oldies

RE: a thorough fuel tank cleaning
"And your carbs will thank you. They no longer live down stream from a sewage plant." -gregforesi tumb2
"Can't see the paint when your looking thru the handlebars..........." -Oldewing ;)
"I'd rather Ride than Shine" -RAT tumb2 Me Too!!

Cliff

'75 GL1000 home built trike; http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=39996
October,2017 BOTM :shock: https://nakedgoldwingsclub.com/forum/page/Welcome

previous rides:
1953 H-D Servi-car, naked, 1969-1978 (serial#53G1559 committed to memory!)
1980 CB900 Custom (triked) 1997-2003 .... R.I.P.
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Barrie
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Re: LTD Won't Stay Lit

#45

Post by Barrie »

What I don't understand is how a (mechanical) pump can generate too much pressure. Is it the wrong type?
1976 Gran' Luxe 1000. Once red, now orange, soon yellow...
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