'79 Wing and a Prayer

[NotSoLilCrippseys]

And the prize goes to Wingrider, who suggested that pulling the rear cover might reveal something amiss!

I got myself situated around the '79 again this afternoon, with a goal of getting the engine free of the frame. After what seemed like a short eternity, I got ye 'ole circlip out so I could get things rocking a bit.

PXL_20220213_195518769.MP.jpg

At first, I was worried that someone had welded the left frame member to the bike, perhaps as part of an old rust repair. Things just seemed a little weird back there near the swingarm and pegs, especially with the PO's matte black paint on the frame in that area. But I was wrong - thankfully!

PXL_20220213_201640659.MP.jpg

What the manuals don't tell you about is the challenge of jostling the motor around the right rear lower frame mount. Not wanting to stress the driveshaft u-joint, I ran laps around the bike - checking and rechecking clearance. In the end, it wasn't that tough.

If I remember what I was doing, there's not really enough clearance to get the motor "over" the mount, as it'll hit the gas tank. I ended up dropping the motor to with about 1/2" of clearing the mount, then rocked it side to side to get clear enough to push forward a bit and slide out the driveshaft. After that, it's easy peasy lemon squeezy. (Yes, I remembered to disconnect the neutral switch before getting too into it.)

I was pleased to find that a PO had soldered the 3 yellow wires from the stator, though it meant I needed to cut away the sealant and clip them to pull the motor.

PXL_20220213_205600379.MP.jpg

Once the motor was out, the rear cover gave me a little trouble. As soon as I started to get her loose, leftover oil just started pouring out. It wasn't that much (maybe 1/8 or 1/4 of a quart), but it sure surprised me a bit as I figured I had mostly gotten things drained. After about 10 minutes of work, I had the cover off and could start a visual inspection of the innards that Wingrider suggested could be causing the trouble.

I have to say, I undertook a good bit of work to discover that a loose starter clutch bolt was ultimately the culprit. Readers with a longish memory will recall that my bolt cover is sheared off and stuck in the rear cover. I couldn't get in behind the cover, and I couldn't get the threaded bits out to get at the bolt. (Maybe I should have pulled the motor before yanking the heads. Oh, look. 20-20 hindsight again.)

PXL_20220213_214137679.MP.jpg

Anyway, I tightened her up. Sure enough, the engine turns with one hand and little torque, as my GIF video shows.

ezgif.com-gif-maker (4).gif

Now, I need to buy a head gasket kit, as well as gaskets for the rear cover, to put things back together and see if I can make her run. Along the way, I'll surely need to clean the carbs - but I expected as much.

Now onto a question that might be nearly as controversial as one about oil or tires: Does the Vesrah gasket kit have a reputation for quality among NGW members? I see I can get the whole kit and kaboodle for about $150, including valve guide seals. But I don't want to do the head gaskets twice when once should be enough.

[Lucien Harpress]

A lot of guys say the Vesrah kit is perfectly fine, and have run them without issue. I agree with them, as far as the "normal" gaskets go. Anything that uses the standard paper gaskets.

Head gaskets, though? I'm an OEM-or-nothing guy. I used Vesrah head gaskets the first time I did mine, and they both blew within a week.

Couple additional random thoughts:

--You may have to pull the back tire, but if you need more space to pull the driveshaft/u-joint back, back the nuts holding the final drive pumpkin to the swingarm out as much as possible and pull the final drive back as far as possible. It only gets you about 3/4 inch, but it's usually enough.

--You may as well do the clutch while you're back there. Is a heck of a lot easier that with the engine in the frame. And clutch plates are cheap enough that it's good insurance.

--I only mention it in passing, because I have no idea if you're having any issues with it OR feel like going that deep, but the water pump may be worth keeping in mind. This isn't a bit deal because it can be done with the engine in the frame, but it's just much, MUCH easier with the engine out.

[MattMcCoy]

https://www.ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic ... 15#p804304

That’s what it looked like.

[gltriker]

Give us a photo of the Inside of the rear cover, too.
Am curious where and why the engine was binding internally.

Yes, I know the rotor retaining bolt was loose. Still wondering, though, if the rotor assembly had been attracted towards the stator assembly by the permanent magnets.

[NotSoLilCrippseys]

Lucien: Thanks. I don't have more than the PO's report that "the bike was riding really well until the starter went." That's not what happened. Or, if it did, then the new starter was not the only issue. (It is a new starter without many miles on it, or so it seems.) I'm not sure I want to do the clutch, but you're right about now being the time. I'll meditate on it. Maybe I drop the $ on OEM head gaskets; they're spendy. Randakk's kit is out of stock. Rear wheel definitely comes off and gets replaced, so your suggestion will be helpful.

Matt: I think you may have been right about the bolt punching through the cover, or perhaps someone turned the motor counterclockwise, didn't do anything to torque it down/tighten, and vibrations led to disaster. I should have credited you with perhaps the right call. (I sheared one of those covers off a GL final drive assembly last summer, so I just figured someone tried to unbolt it and broke it.)

GLtriker: I'll get some decent photos of the inside of the cover when I'm next in the shop. I've got quite a bit of cleaning up to do, as I was focused on getting a good look-see at the problem and the boss thought I had already worked out there too long for a Sunday afternoon.

Occam's Razor likely applies: PO turned engine with counterclockwise rotation of starter clutch bolt and loosened things up a bit, perhaps in a t-belt change; maybe bolt punches through that bolt cover as things unravel.

Hopefully, the bolt got wedged in that little space without damaging the actual rear cover.

[Lucien Harpress]

On the flip side, head gaskets aren't THAT hard to do engine-in-frame, so if you feel like running the Vesrah first, who knows? They might be fine. And if not, it shouldn't be too hard to swap them.

Clutch can be done in-frame too, but it just seems like a royal PITA. Especially if you're getting all the gaskets for the rear cases anyway.

-Signed, somebody who just got done pulling his own motor and is still in "Fix Everything Possible" mode.

[MattMcCoy]

Matt: I think you may have been right about the bolt punching through the cover

That was all you, and a good call by Wingrider. If anyone down the line has the same issue, hopefully your photo will help.

[Old Fogey]

Front wheel and brake discs are 78

[wingrider]

Glad the engine turns…certainly more than one way to stick an engine…

[NotSoLilCrippseys]

Time flies when work intrudes. I've been a headless chicken for weeks and have just not found myself in the shop for what feels like forever. I got out this afternoon - snow day - after my third round of shoveling.

I've got a pic now. Fortunately, it shows no actual damage to the rear cover or anything else following the loosening of the starter clutch bolt.

PXL_20220225_195934069.MP.jpg

I'm learning someone else's lesson here:

DO NOT EVER TURN THE STARTER CLUTCH BOLT COUNTERCLOCKWISE WHEN USING IT TO SET UP YOUR BELTS - OR WHEN ROTATING TO SET TIMING. A bad thing will probably happen. You may discover that your engine won't turn over, then go crazy and buy a starter that doesn't solve it, pull the heads to see what's up and be frustrated, and pull the motor. It'll all suck because everything worked just fine before you took on some relatively minor maintenance item. Or maybe you'll give up and sell your pride and joy for peanuts, all because you didn't follow the old "righty-tighty, lefty-loosy" guideline.

As a little bonus, I was able to easily remove the bolt hole plug remnants with a chisel and hammer. Gentle taps in a counterclockwise direction. So that's good news as well.

Next up is removal of old gasket material and thorough cleaning of the mating surfaces before reassembly.
(I'm still not in possession of said gaskets, but that old material is not something that just comes off with a fingernail. I'll be on the removal/cleaning for a good bit.)

Old Fogey: Your comment has me wondering about this bike. It's a 79, according to the badge. Rear signals are '78. I suppose the easy explanation for the wheel/rotors is that something happened to the original '79 wheel.

What are the differences that make it all so obvious? I looked online at some stock photos of those bikes; nothing jumps out at me. If I could spot the diffs, I could explore the rear wheel. Maybe it's also a '78. Maybe the bike is itself the product of someone else's previous effort to make 1 GL1000 from 2.

[Old Fogey]

The 78 front wheel had slots in the 'spokes' that reached almost the full length. There was a problem with the wheel cracking. 79 wheels have much shorter slots.
78 brake discs have solid spokes and again were subject to cracking. 79 discs have slitted spokes.
As fas as I am aware, the rear wheel and disc was trouble free and the same for both years.
79 front discs:

[Old Fogey]

79 front wheel:
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/994AAOSw ... -l1600.jpg

[Lucien Harpress]

As far as removing old gasket material, what works best for me is a scraper razor and a steady hand. You have to keep it almost flat to the mating surface while you're scraping (because it CAN nick the aluminum of the case) but once you get the angle right it should just gliiiide.

I've found that flat chisel-type blades for Xacto knives work well for the tighter areas as well.

[Fred Camper]

Lovely details and lessons for all.

[NotSoLilCrippseys]

OK. Trouble in paradise, methinks.

I put some time on gasket material removal today. No problems there, even as I see I'm in for some hours of work.

For fun, I thought I'd confirm that I would not bind up the motor by reinstalling the rear cover now that I've tightened up that loose bolt. No joy here.

I can't get the rear cover BACK ON.

I'm getting the magnetic friction as I start to slide it on. OK. At some point, though, I bottom out. Gentle taps with a rubber mallet produce the sound of solid to solid. I pulled it off, and put it back on about 5 times. I can't get closer than about 1/4", not enough to use the bolts to start to persuade her on.

I don't think I'm off kilter; there are to longish studs sticking out below the output shaft and to the right of the clutch basket, and I'm on those. I could be a hair or three off, but not much more than that.

Is this a common challenge with rear cover assembly?

For those in the know, here's some visual evidence of the scenario.

PXL_20220226_212159040.MP.jpg

PXL_20220226_215521472.MP.jpg

PXL_20220226_215529231.MP.jpg

PXL_20220226_215645824.jpg

PXL_20220226_215712316.jpg

Also there are a couple "nicks" on the very back of the rear cover. I supplied one photo to show it. Maybe that's where the binding was happening.

I took 5 seconds to try to remove the stator coil to see if that's where I'm bottoming out, but it's not an easy JIS removal. I'm going to need soak, maybe heat, and time.