GL1000/1100 Cooling System Servicing/Silicate Free Myth

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Sidecar Bob
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#16

Post by Sidecar Bob »

sodbuster wrote:Should some of this info be added to the How-To links in "ShopTalk" ???
Um.... Last time I looked it was under "Cooling System" in Shop Talk?
brian beal wrote:yes
if the info on changing the rad coolant can be expanded on for the wings with fairings.it would be very helpfull to know how to remove the shelter to get acces to the rad neck for filling the coolant change.
I thought I explained how to take the shelter off above.

To get at the rad filer you need to either remove the fairing or use a funnel with a long spout (you can get a big plastic funnel at a $ store and put piece of old garden hose on it).
Mr. Honda ('83 GL1100/Dnepr) summer How a motorcycle evolves thread
The Famous Eccles ('84 CX650EI/VeloUral) winter Never Ending Build (CX500forum)
Click: Colour schematics for all GL1000 & GL1100 and GL1200 standard models plus instructions on how to download the full size version
"A guy with two sidecars can't be all bad." - Cookie
Another guy with two sidecars..... Hmmmm... must be something to that....
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#17

Post by sodbuster »

Sidecar Bob wrote:
sodbuster wrote:Should some of this info be added to the How-To links in "ShopTalk" ???
Um.... Last time I looked it was under "Cooling System" in Shop Talk?
What I'm asking is to edit existing posts in "ShopTalk" to include the tips that were mentioned above ....
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Sidecar Bob
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#18

Post by Sidecar Bob »

The link in Shop Talk takes you to this thread.
Mr. Honda ('83 GL1100/Dnepr) summer How a motorcycle evolves thread
The Famous Eccles ('84 CX650EI/VeloUral) winter Never Ending Build (CX500forum)
Click: Colour schematics for all GL1000 & GL1100 and GL1200 standard models plus instructions on how to download the full size version
"A guy with two sidecars can't be all bad." - Cookie
Another guy with two sidecars..... Hmmmm... must be something to that....
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cooling system

#19

Post by brian beal »

Yes,it was explained well,just wanted some more info on the bikes with fairings.Also,one more question...
My fan comes on right away apon turing the key?/ is that normal to run all the time or has some one jerry rigged it?
it seems it should only come on when needed by use of the thermo switch?
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Roady
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#20

Post by Roady »

Sounds like your fan has been hotwired.

You don't want that turning when you're trying to crank the engine over.

Trace the wires between the fan, switch and fuse block.
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#21

Post by brian beal »

thanks for the info
when i trace the wires to the fuse block,what should i look for as a hot wire(jerry rig) or how should it be to be correct?
would this mean the thermo switch did not work so they made the fan run all the time by direct wiring?How could it be tested?

by the way this forum and the info provided by the members is very helpfull and accurate.the Honda dealers seem to know next to nothing about these older wings!!This is a great place to come for answers and is much appreciated!!
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#22

Post by Sidecar Bob »

If I was going to "hot wire" the fan I would jump the connections in the connector that plugs onto the temp switch. It should be on the thermostat housing - top front of the engine between the shroud and the rad.

You might also look for a "parade switch" that allows the fan to be turned on continuously when the bike is driven for extended periods at slow speeds on hot days. They were fairly common at one time....
Mr. Honda ('83 GL1100/Dnepr) summer How a motorcycle evolves thread
The Famous Eccles ('84 CX650EI/VeloUral) winter Never Ending Build (CX500forum)
Click: Colour schematics for all GL1000 & GL1100 and GL1200 standard models plus instructions on how to download the full size version
"A guy with two sidecars can't be all bad." - Cookie
Another guy with two sidecars..... Hmmmm... must be something to that....
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#23

Post by brian beal »

Excuse my ignorance but...
How exactly does the fan itself and the fan thermo switch work together?
They must be tied together somehow so that when the engine calls for the cooling fan by meens of the thermo switch to turn it on?I tried tracing wires on the fan and thermo switch but it appeared they went in 2 differant directions.if the fan itself was rigged with a "parade switch" does that mean it would completely by pass the thermo switch? Or If the thermo switch was rigged and not the fan motor itself how would that keep the fan on all the time as soon as the 12 volts(turning the key)occured or could the continuous fan be only achieved by the fan motor itself being hot wired??
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Re: fan switch

#24

Post by Sidecar Bob »

This is long, but I am trying to give you as much information as possible.
brian beal wrote:How exactly does the fan itself and the fan thermo switch work together?
Start by going to my gallery and downloading the schematic for your bike. (Aspencade is the same as Interstate with some accessories added on. Download both the standard & Interstate versions - sometimes something shows up better on one than on the other)(Click the thumbnail to bring up an 800x600 image of the schematic, then click the 800x600 to bring up the full size pic. Right click the full size image and click Save Picture As)

Near the middle bottom you will find the FAN MOTOR and the THERMO SWITCH next to each other (for some reason the thermo switch isn't labeled on the '80-82 Interstate drawing).

You will see a black wire connecting the switch and the motor, a green wire from the other side of the switch to ground (in the wiring harness) and a blue wire from the other side of the motor that connects to a blue/black wire that runs to a the black main power wire (not fused, on whenever the key is on).

The circuit works like this:
- One side of the fan motor is connected to power. The other side of the fan motor goes to ground through the thermo switch.
- The thermo switch is basically a switch that is normally open (no current can flow through it) at lower temperatures but it's contacts close (allowing current to flow) when it is heated up.
- The thermo switch is screwed into the thermostat housing so that one end of it is exposed to the coolant and when the coolant reaches the prescribed temperature the thermo switch closes and connects the fan motor to ground, turning it on.

In real terms:
- You will see a black rubber object about 1.5" across with two wires coming out of it on the thermostat housing . This is the plug that connects the thermo switch to everything else.
- If you pull the plug off of the switch the fan should not come on.
- If you pull the plug off of the switch and the fan still runs look inside the plug to see if someone has put in a jumper across the terminals inside the plug (this is the quickest way to bypass the switch if it fails in hot weather and you need to get the fan running).
- If the fan still runs and there is no jumper, look for a connection between the wires that run to the plug (or wires spliced to the wires that run to the plug and connected to a switch).
- If there is no jumper or connection between the wires and the fan still runs you need to have someone who understands bike wiring look at it - I couldn't begin to describe all of the possible ways someone could screw around with the wiring harness here.

- If the fan stops running when the plug is unplugged you will probably need to replace the thermo switch. This is covered somewhere else on this forum, including a car part that will work if I remember correctly.

BTW: Most fan switches fail open. This means that if the thermo switch fails the fan will not run, no matter how hot the engine gets.
It is far more likely for the switch to have failed open and someone bypassed it than for the switch to have failed closed and actually cause the fan to stay on.

if the fan itself was rigged with a "parade switch" does that mean it would completely by pass the thermo switch?
The basic idea of the parade switch is to connect a manual switch directly across the thermo switch so that you can turn the fan on manually. If you have ever been in any kind of slow procession (or even stop & go traffic) on a hot day and felt the blast of the fan kicking on & off you will understand why having it on all the time and blowing warm (but not furnace-hot) air steadily would be desirable.

As I mentioned before, parade switches were fairly common at one time, but they were by no means universal. I have also seen liquid cooled bikes that had been fitted with something similar because the thermo switch had failed and the owner felt that they could control the fan adequately by keeping an eye on the temperature gauge and switching the fan on when needed.
There were even parade switch kits available with a switch that mounted in the fairing and looked like it belonged there. I had a parade switch on my first 'Wing but I just connected a regular switch across the thermo switch and mounted a LED beside it so I would know when the fan was on (BTW: when the fan was off and I got up to about 70 Km/h the wind turning the fan blades generated enough power to make the LED glow dimly).

On the off chance that the previous owner did something like this, look for a switch that doesn't seem to do anything else and try it. Don't forget that it can take a few seconds for the fan to coast to a stop when the power to the motor is shut off.
Or If the thermo switch was rigged and not the fan motor itself how would that keep the fan on all the time as soon as the 12 volts(turning the key)occurred or could the continuous fan be only achieved by the fan motor itself being hot wired??
You have to think in terms of the whole circuit, not the individual parts of it. The thermo switch is a sealed unit so it couldn't be "rigged" to stay on. The fan motor has to be connected to power (positive voltage) and ground (negative voltage) in order to work. It is normally connected to ground through the thermo switch so there is no way to "rig" the fan to come on without connecting something across the thermo switch.

Also, remember that this is bike, not a car - when the key is turned off nothing gets power, not even the fan. If someone bypassed the thermo switch in some way the fan would be off when the key is off and it would run all the time when the key was on.
Rant: I have never understood why so many potentially battery draining circuits (lights for example) in a typical car are still live when the key is off. This is an example of bad automotive design that has become universal, but that's a rant for another time.
Mr. Honda ('83 GL1100/Dnepr) summer How a motorcycle evolves thread
The Famous Eccles ('84 CX650EI/VeloUral) winter Never Ending Build (CX500forum)
Click: Colour schematics for all GL1000 & GL1100 and GL1200 standard models plus instructions on how to download the full size version
"A guy with two sidecars can't be all bad." - Cookie
Another guy with two sidecars..... Hmmmm... must be something to that....
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#25

Post by brian beal »

Thanks alot for being so thorough and descript!
very usefull info!!
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#26

Post by brian beal »

i did the tests you spoke of.I unplugged the thermo switch to the fan and found no jumper on the plug.When the key is turned and plug un pluged the fan does not turn on.Does that mean the thermo switch just needs replaced? i looked for a parade switch and found nothing coming from the thermo swith but found a suspect wire connector that had been spliced into the wire coming from the plug on the fan motor itself up and to the left side of the shelter? Would that be the hot wire or a normal factory connection?
I looked for a parade switch on the fairing on the right side low cut into it in front of the sterio amplifier? it is a pull on switch with a light bulb in it that was at one point appeared to have one wire connected to the positive space on the fuse block and the other wire location is unknown?The wires on this switch had been cut and disabled prior to me.Would that be the parade switch now disabled?there are 2 terminals on the back of it.Where would each wire go to if i where to re- engage this parade switch to make the fan come off and on when desired or should i just replace the thermo switch and would that solve my problem??
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#27

Post by Sidecar Bob »

If the fan stops running when the plug is unplugged and there is no jumper across the thermo switch's terminals or anything like that, you have the rare (but obviously not unheard of) case of the thermo switch failing closed.

The proper fix is to replace the thermo switch.

If you like the idea of a parade switch you can connect the switch on your fairing across the wires that go to the thermo switch plug and it should allow you to turn the fan on manually.

If you just want to be able to turn the fan on manually as a temporary measure until you can get a new thermo switch, put a couple of bullet connectors on the ends of a couple of wires, connect the wires to the switch on the fairing and plug the bullets into the thermo switch plug.

I would still replace the thermo switch though because it would be really easy to forget about watching the temp gauge in stop & go traffic on a hot day.

BTW: The disconnected switch was probably there for running lights or something like that.
Mr. Honda ('83 GL1100/Dnepr) summer How a motorcycle evolves thread
The Famous Eccles ('84 CX650EI/VeloUral) winter Never Ending Build (CX500forum)
Click: Colour schematics for all GL1000 & GL1100 and GL1200 standard models plus instructions on how to download the full size version
"A guy with two sidecars can't be all bad." - Cookie
Another guy with two sidecars..... Hmmmm... must be something to that....
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#28

Post by oldiegoldie »

In terms of Prestone Brand, you say not to use Long-Life....I am wondering if that also applies to the Extended-Life version.......it says its silicate-free and OK for aluminum engines........that seems good..............should I use it or go with the Honda certified?

Thanks........
1978 GL 1000 Goldwing (Blackie)
1978 GL 100 Goldwing (still under renovation but on the next spring!!)
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Sidecar Bob
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#29

Post by Sidecar Bob »

The more I learn the less I tend to believe that there is a need for silicate free coolants in these bikes. No-one has been able to find any mention of this in any Honda manual. It does, apparently, appear on the label of Honda coolant, but there is no evidence that it wasn't put there by someone in marketing (whose job is to sell people more than they need) as opposed to someone in engineering (whose job is to provide the information needed to keep things running properly).

I started using Motomaster Long Life when I read on the forums that I should be using silicate free coolant. At the time I changed over Canadian Tire tech support assured me that it was safe for yellow metals, but that was 8 or 9 years ago and they may have changed supplier or their supplier may have changed the formula since then.

Some Silicate free coolants are not compatible with "yellow metals" (like the brass in our rads) and could potentially do a lot of harm. Some long life (silicate free) coolants will, over time, dissolve the solder used to hold brass radiators together.

Of course, the failure of the original water pump in my GoldWing engine a couple of years after I changed over to silicate free was not related to the presence or absence of silicates - after all, how many 25 year old cars do you know of that still have their original water pumps?

On the other hand, Joe-the-Bike (who lives in Queensland Australia and has owned his bike from new) put well over 200,000 Km on his CX500EC with no mechanical seal problems using regular bargain priced ethylene glycol coolant. He did replace the seal when he had the engine apart for a general rebuild last year but it had not begun to leak.

I don't buy into the silicate free coolant myth any more and I no longer worry about whether I the coolant I buy has silicates (although almost all of it is either silicate free or low silicate thse days). I have since started using Nascar Advantage colour changing coolant because I like the fact that it tells me when it needs replacing (pink when new, replace when it turns amber).
Mr. Honda ('83 GL1100/Dnepr) summer How a motorcycle evolves thread
The Famous Eccles ('84 CX650EI/VeloUral) winter Never Ending Build (CX500forum)
Click: Colour schematics for all GL1000 & GL1100 and GL1200 standard models plus instructions on how to download the full size version
"A guy with two sidecars can't be all bad." - Cookie
Another guy with two sidecars..... Hmmmm... must be something to that....
oldiegoldie
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#30

Post by oldiegoldie »

My thinking ran like this:

I have owned my '79 GL since new (had <500 miles on it). I have always bought anti-freeze that was just anti-freeze. Always green colored and have had no problems. Now after a blown head gasket, I find the world of anti-freeze has become complicated. I am a little concerned about changing to this new silicate-free , boron-free stuff 'cause it might clean something out or re-distribute particals of stuff and "cause" problems. It seems that if its been OK for 30 years, it should be OK now.

Great info...thanks!
1978 GL 1000 Goldwing (Blackie)
1978 GL 100 Goldwing (still under renovation but on the next spring!!)
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