Felt seals

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mikenixon
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Felt seals

#1

Post by mikenixon »

Image

This is a subject I've touched on before. This time we'll delve a little deeper.

There is a pervasive but incorrect notion that your carburetor's throttle shaft seals contribute to performance issues. Actually, they don't. These felt rings are dust seals only, not vacuum seals. In other words, your carburetors have a designed-in amount of air leakage past the throttle shafts. This is normal and it's the way all Keihin and Mikuni CV carbs are, not just Gold Wing carbs. 1 For this reason, though I sell the seals (all four sizes in fact), I am indifferent about their replacement. 2 The sole job of the felt seals is to slow the entry of abrasive dirt that would hasten the wear of the brass bushings the throttle shafts are mounted in. That's it. They guard the bushings, not the vacuum.

There is a second misunderstanding associated with this one, and that is the idea that spraying flammable aerosol products on the carburetors can help detect vacuum leaks. Though like cat videos on YouTube this fallacy virtually defines motorcycle user forums, no thinking mechanic uses anything like that method to check for vacuum leaks. Here's why. A carburetor has half a dozen openings to atmosphere all around it. Any flammable substance sprayed even a short distance -- let alone right at -- the carburetor is going to be picked up by the carburetor and will then affect engine running. Doesn't tell you anything. A professional mechanic uses the historic less air test to find vacuum leaks. 3

A third tie-in to the subject of felt seals is the mistaken belief that chemical dip and other immersion methods of carburetor cleaning necessarily hurt the seals. Sure, felt seals deteriorate over time and become dried up and shrunken, in extreme cases to the point that removing them results in their basically flaking away into dusty bits on the workbench. But that's not the fault of dipping. That's entropy. Again, they're only dust seals, long-term guardians of the throttle shaft bearings.

Instead of all this hand-wringing over supposed effects the felt seals have on performance, it is much wiser to go after the things that really do hurt engine efficiency. There are several. The number one thing to eliminate as a performance problem on vintage Japanese bikes is low cylinder compression. See my articles on this. The fact is, the years do one big thing to these engines: makes 'em "out of breath". I tell all my customers they want 150 psi ("book" is 170), but unfortunately in this engine 120~140 is very common. It makes little sense to spend your energy on anything else -- ignition, carburetors, whatever-- if your engine develops less than 150 psi. 4

Speaking of ignition, the second thing to check, less important than compression by only the proverbial hair, is ignition timing. Don't overlook it. I'm now over 46 years into this business and have worked for close to a dozen shop owners in addition to having my own business. In all that time and among all those people -- many if not most professionals like myself -- I doubt I have known more than a handful who could service the GL1000 ignition properly. While not particularly difficult -- on the order of syncing carbs once you know how -- ignition service on the GL1000 is nonetheless the most challenging maintenance item bar none for most folks simply because the proper procedure is extremely unintuitive. There are aspects of it that just don't make sense to most people. It's not like any other maintenance task on the Wing. Don't take ignition timing too lightly. It is nothing less than the soul of this motorcycle. 5

Get out of your mind that the felt seals affect performance. In fact, the next time someone tells you new felt seals will perk up your carbs' performance, tell 'em -- well, you know what to tell them. Ride safe.

Notes:
1 Even fuel injection throttle bodies are like this. The only reason worn throttle bodies and the resulting throttle shaft wiggling hurt performance is because the throttle position sensor on the end of the shaft becomes unstable and "confuses" the computer (ECU).

2 Three different throttle shaft sizes and one choke shaft size. These cover all the Honda carburetors that I do most of my business in.

3 See my The 60/40 Rule article.

4 Seriously. Get the most important thing right first. If you own a 30-50 year old motorcycle, you really should also own a quality compression tester.

5 The need for ignition service is almost always blamed on other things, including the carburetor felt seals.
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flyday58
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Re: Felt seals

#2

Post by flyday58 »

Thanks Mike. As always :horse:
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Re: Felt seals

#3

Post by chewy999 »

Thanks Mike, always informative.

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kenai
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Re: Felt seals

#4

Post by kenai »

I can't wait for the new book "Mike's Magical Tuning Tricks" it needs a whole chapter dedicated to ignition tuning; it's such a pain. until then I'll keep setting and then see how it runs; adjust and ride some more....lee
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Re: Felt seals

#5

Post by mikenixon »

:)
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Re: Felt seals

#6

Post by heraldhamster »

maybe it's just me, because I didn't know what I was doing the first time I set the ignition timing on an engine, it just happened to be a GL1000... but the procedure (I believe it was either from Randakk's site or Octane's method on this site. been a long time ago) made total sense and it turned out extremely well as far as performance goes.

re: the felt seals info, many thanks Mike! I had always wondered about those and thought I could make them myself since my wife is totally into "the fiber arts"... but I was always wary of not making the proper density of weave. I thought I was going to have to lightly felt uncombed wool and hope for the best. I didn't know you had them available. that's awesome!
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mikenixon
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Re: Felt seals

#7

Post by mikenixon »

heraldhamster wrote:maybe it's just me, because I didn't know what I was doing the first time I set the ignition timing on an engine, it just happened to be a GL1000... but the procedure (I believe it was either from Randakk's site or Octane's method on this site. been a long time ago) made total sense and it turned out extremely well as far as performance goes.
Great! Not everyone has this experience. Consider yourself part of an elite club!
heraldhamster wrote:re: the felt seals info, many thanks Mike! I had always wondered about those and thought I could make them myself since my wife is totally into "the fiber arts"... but I was always wary of not making the proper density of weave. I thought I was going to have to lightly felt uncombed wool and hope for the best. I didn't know you had them available. that's awesome!
You're welcome. They're on the front page of my website. You'll find sizes for all the Honda carbs I do, including 6mm for the choke shafts.
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Stromberg
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Brass bearings for choke shaft?

#8

Post by Stromberg »

Hello Mike,
I´ve learned in your post that the throttle shaft has brass bearings.
But what about the choke shaft? My 1981 GL1100 Carbs have the choke shafts directly in the Aluminium body running. And the gap is quite big. I can move and rattle the shaft radially in their bearing.
And unfortunately there is no felt ring anymore to dampen it.
See the Foto:
my 1981 GL1100 choke shaft bearing
my 1981 GL1100 choke shaft bearing
IMG-20190407-WA0013.jpg (57.2 KiB) Viewed 490 times
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mikenixon
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Re: Brass bearings for choke shaft?

#9

Post by mikenixon »

Stromberg wrote:Hello Mike,
I´ve learned in your post that the throttle shaft has brass bearings.
But what about the choke shaft? My 1981 GL1100 Carbs have the choke shafts directly in the Aluminium body running. And the gap is quite big. I can move and rattle the shaft radially in their bearing.
And unfortunately there is no felt ring anymore to dampen it.
See the Foto:

IMG-20190407-WA0013.jpg
Hi, Stromberg. Yes, I know how loosely the choke shafts fit. But if looseness of the throttle shafts makes no difference to performance, and it doesn't, how much less do you suppose looseness at the choke shaft affects performance? The felt seals really aren't meant to reduce shaft movement.
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Old Fogey
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Re: Felt seals

#10

Post by Old Fogey »

Although I didn't have some of the insights Mike mentions above, I came to the same conclusions through experimenting some time back.
http://wingovations.com/carb-throttle-s ... 4579471122
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mikenixon
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Re: Felt seals

#11

Post by mikenixon »

Good reading. Good sleuthing. :)
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