Malice in Aftermarketland

Tips and Recommendations from Guru Mike Nixon

Moderator: Whiskerfish

Post Reply
User avatar
mikenixon
Early 'Wing Guru
Early 'Wing Guru
Posts: 997
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2009 1:51 am
Location: Prescott, AZ
Contact:

Malice in Aftermarketland

#1

Post by mikenixon »

"It would be so nice if something made sense for a change." Lewis Carroll, Alice in Wonderland.

In the motorcycle's heyday of the 1970s, the powersports aftermarket was glutted with fairing kits, engine guards and saddlebags, custom seats and tanks, and similar accessories. However, saddlebags had to have holes drilled in their mounts or you couldn't afterward replace rear brake pads. Engine guards wouldn't permit carb syncing. Fairings needed extra ground wires to prevent floating grounds. Aftermarket fork seals quit working almost as soon as they were installed. Fork braces ruined the suspension. Crimp-on wire connectors resulted in electrical surges. And almost everything was mounted with worm drive hose clamps, automotive muffler hardware and (ugh!) plastic cable ("zip") ties. We techs hated having to deal with this stuff.

Carburetor rebuild kits are an example all unto themselves, of course. Each OEM carburetor has a slightly different slide needle. The aftermarket companies can't work to that standard. Instead of scores of different needles spanning a dozen models and years of carburetors, they rely on a mere handful. The result is, there may be one carb among the 10 or 20 models on which a particular needle is correctly specd, but it certainly can't be correctly specd for all of them. It's just not possible. This forum has done a good job of identifying many of the issues with Napco, Keyster and K&L carb kits, but sadly, for they're still widely in use. I just disassembled some GL1000 carbs and looky there, not one of the 24 jets in this carb set has a number on it!

Perhaps the oddest thing is, now the OEMs themselves are adding to the problem. Ignition points, for example, not made by the original major makers TEC and ND but by Diachi, an absolutely atrociously-bad product, yet now sold as a Honda part, in a Honda bag, with a Honda part number. Never thought I'd see that.

Most riders don't appreciate how really bad the aftermarket parts industry is. It's done a good job of inculcating us. But it's a wasteland compared with OEM. Work with both stock and aftermarket parts for a living and you'll quickly discover you're dealing with two completely different worlds and that going back and forth between them is like entering a time warp. The aftermarket world is indeed a place where, as Alice said, things get "curiouser and curiouser", where "uncommon nonsense" is the norm, and you are unashamedly compelled to "believe as many as six impossible things before breakfast." (Thank you, Mr. Carroll!).
User avatar
quasi2008
Tin Member
Tin Member
Posts: 16
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2018 3:25 pm
Location: morgantown wv

Re: Malice in Aftermarketland

#2

Post by quasi2008 »

well, I am a victim of junk aftermarket slide needles. several weeks ago I was coming back in off a "test" ride, turned onto a nice straight stretch about 3 miles from the house, rolled on the throttle and the engine started to gag! figured maybe picked up a bit of dirt or maybe water in the fuel. i had committed to do an escort with 3 other riders the next day for Wreaths Across America, so down interstate 79 i went, running 80+. still gagging. made the run back home, engine still gagging. checked everything i could check, coils good, new plug wires are good, no arcing from the boots. found it! fouled #4 plug, cleaned it, put it on the wire and checked for good spark, twas good. swapped plugs just to verify things, that plugged fouled out. pulled the air filter out and checked for flooding. was slight flooding going on. pulled the rack o carbs and popped the vacuum slide cap off of #4 and as Bubba J would say, "there she was"! slide needle had fell apart. the little flange portion had come off of the needle and the needle was buried all the way down in the jet. instead of being machined one piece it was a 2 piece pressed together. maybe all the needles are 2 piece, i don't have the experience to know. i sourced a replacement set of 4 OEM with the proper part # off of fleabay and so far so good. these appeared to be machined one piece, i hope so. i later read that it is not really necessary to change out the slide needles on the average rebuild anyways. i did because they were in the kit i had bought and being ignorant of the subject i changed them out and tossed my OEM ones. buy the best you can source and stay as far away from "cheap" aftermarket carb kits as possible.
User avatar
mikenixon
Early 'Wing Guru
Early 'Wing Guru
Posts: 997
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2009 1:51 am
Location: Prescott, AZ
Contact:

Re: Malice in Aftermarketland

#3

Post by mikenixon »

quasi2008 wrote:well, I am a victim of junk aftermarket slide needles. several weeks ago I was coming back in off a "test" ride, turned onto a nice straight stretch about 3 miles from the house, rolled on the throttle and the engine started to gag! figured maybe picked up a bit of dirt or maybe water in the fuel. i had committed to do an escort with 3 other riders the next day for Wreaths Across America, so down interstate 79 i went, running 80+. still gagging. made the run back home, engine still gagging. checked everything i could check, coils good, new plug wires are good, no arcing from the boots. found it! fouled #4 plug, cleaned it, put it on the wire and checked for good spark, twas good. swapped plugs just to verify things, that plugged fouled out. pulled the air filter out and checked for flooding. was slight flooding going on. pulled the rack o carbs and popped the vacuum slide cap off of #4 and as Bubba J would say, "there she was"! slide needle had fell apart. the little flange portion had come off of the needle and the needle was buried all the way down in the jet. instead of being machined one piece it was a 2 piece pressed together. maybe all the needles are 2 piece, i don't have the experience to know. i sourced a replacement set of 4 OEM with the proper part # off of fleabay and so far so good. these appeared to be machined one piece, i hope so. i later read that it is not really necessary to change out the slide needles on the average rebuild anyways. i did because they were in the kit i had bought and being ignorant of the subject i changed them out and tossed my OEM ones. buy the best you can source and stay as far away from "cheap" aftermarket carb kits as possible.
Good story, thanks for sharing it. I almost cry when I realize someone has thrown away the stock needles when installing a kit.
User avatar
rcmatt007
Treasurer
Treasurer
Posts: 31305
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2005 12:48 pm
My Album: http://www.ngwclub.com/gallery/v/wingmans/rcmatt007/
Location: New River Valley, Virginia

Re: Malice in Aftermarketland

#4

Post by rcmatt007 »

it amazes me that people replace things that rarely need replacing.

It is always cheaper in the long run to pay for quality up front.
User avatar
ancientdad
Cast Iron Member
Cast Iron Member
Posts: 60
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:26 pm

Re: Malice in Aftermarketland

#5

Post by ancientdad »

rcmatt007 wrote:it amazes me that people replace things that rarely need replacing.

It is always cheaper in the long run to pay for quality up front.
me too - over at HT, we preach cleaning and re-using the stock jets, needles and needle jet tubes regularly and still see people comment on how they replaced all the brass when they rebuilt the carbs. there was a time when you could trust the parts that came in kits, and especially those from Honda... sad to say, apparently it has passed some time ago
User avatar
mikenixon
Early 'Wing Guru
Early 'Wing Guru
Posts: 997
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2009 1:51 am
Location: Prescott, AZ
Contact:

Re: Malice in Aftermarketland

#6

Post by mikenixon »

rcmatt007 wrote:it amazes me that people replace things that rarely need replacing.

It is always cheaper in the long run to pay for quality up front.
The registered slogan on my website, "Quality doesn't cost, it pays!" :)
User avatar
mikenixon
Early 'Wing Guru
Early 'Wing Guru
Posts: 997
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2009 1:51 am
Location: Prescott, AZ
Contact:

Re: Malice in Aftermarketland

#7

Post by mikenixon »

And to continue on the "OEM is playing the same game as the aftermarket" theme, here's more. Though not affecting the Gold Wing, Honda has superceded many of its vintage parts, an increasing number to similar parts from much later models. While harmless when it's an oil seal, an o-ring or a fastener, it's not so innocent a substitution when it's an engine part. Seems clerical types are making these decisions, not technical people. After a certain year, virtually all early 70s Honda twins and fours had two-piece clutch pushrods. They were part aluminum and part steel. This design was so that the freeplay stayed constant as the engine warmed up. Current same-part-number supercessions of this part revert back ten or more years to an all-steel pushrod, the result of which is that the built-in heat expansion compensation is lost. Here's another. The so-called Hy-Vo type link plate cam chains used on 80s Hondas is getting scarcer and scarcer, and the aftermarket versions are hugely inferior. Honda recently resorted to using K&L as their supplier for this part, a source that has been the bane of the industry for some time. Because, their chain fits alright, but its pins are, at 2.5mm, fully 0.5mm smaller in diameter than the stock chain's. Honda cam chains for the DOHC fours and the CBX are now junk; they are this K&L chain, not the original 3mm-pin chain. This is a big deal for engine builders. You guys know the moly grease story, but here it is in sum. Since 1982 Honda had been supplying a unique moly grease with, in its last incarnation, 60 percent actual metal content. So good was this grease that mechanics of other brands were faithfully buying it for decades. It was *the* thing to use on Boxer BMW transmission couplings, for example. Two years ago Honda superceded the number to an altogether different product not labeled as to moly content but believed to be a simple engine assembly grease, good in its own right but not the super grease that the original high pressure long-lasting stuff designed for special purpose use in suspension linkages was. Honda is to be commended for at least addressing vintage parts needs. Try to get float valves from for certain Yamaha models or certain Suzukis. Not happening. So good for Honda. But it's a shame that, as exemplified in these examples and in the very troublesome case of ignition contact points, the company is satisfied to lower their standards in order to do it.
User avatar
mikenixon
Early 'Wing Guru
Early 'Wing Guru
Posts: 997
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2009 1:51 am
Location: Prescott, AZ
Contact:

Re: Malice in Aftermarketland

#8

Post by mikenixon »

ancientdad wrote:over at HT, we preach cleaning and re-using the stock jets, needles and needle jet tubes regularly and still see people comment on how they replaced all the brass when they rebuilt the carbs. there was a time when you could trust the parts that came in kits, and especially those from Honda... sad to say, apparently it has passed some time ago
Yes. There is no reason to replace needle jet or jet needle on 77 and later Keihin carbs, and only slightly more reason on earlier ones. The 77 and later have berrylium needles and stainless steel jets. Tragic.
User avatar
ancientdad
Cast Iron Member
Cast Iron Member
Posts: 60
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:26 pm

Re: Malice in Aftermarketland

#9

Post by ancientdad »

mikenixon wrote:
ancientdad wrote:over at HT, we preach cleaning and re-using the stock jets, needles and needle jet tubes regularly and still see people comment on how they replaced all the brass when they rebuilt the carbs. there was a time when you could trust the parts that came in kits, and especially those from Honda... sad to say, apparently it has passed some time ago
Yes. There is no reason to replace needle jet or jet needle on 77 and later Keihin carbs, and only slightly more reason on earlier ones. The 77 and later have berrylium needles and stainless steel jets. Tragic.
Well, I'm assuming your reference was to Wing carbs in general. I was referring to the wide range of bikes that are covered on the HondaTwins site primarily but I'm guessing it holds true for most Hondas, particularly applied to jets. Aftermarket kits often include improper sizes and as mentioned above, often unmarked as well. The people who get stung the easiest are those who are new to vintage bikes... and many of those also take those vintage bikes to local shop for repairs they often unnecessarily believe they can't do themselves, and encounter people who were born well after the bike was built being the ones working on them. Double bad.
User avatar
dontwantapickle
Silver Member
Silver Member
Posts: 944
Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:26 pm
Location: Colorado

Re: Malice in Aftermarketland

#10

Post by dontwantapickle »

ain't Randakk's parts "aftermarket"?
Since people here have such a high opinion about their quality parts, I am led
to believe that not all aftermarket parts are inferior to the oem stuff.
caveat emptor
User avatar
mikenixon
Early 'Wing Guru
Early 'Wing Guru
Posts: 997
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2009 1:51 am
Location: Prescott, AZ
Contact:

Re: Malice in Aftermarketland

#11

Post by mikenixon »

ancientdad wrote:
mikenixon wrote:
ancientdad wrote:over at HT, we preach cleaning and re-using the stock jets, needles and needle jet tubes regularly and still see people comment on how they replaced all the brass when they rebuilt the carbs. there was a time when you could trust the parts that came in kits, and especially those from Honda... sad to say, apparently it has passed some time ago
Yes. There is no reason to replace needle jet or jet needle on 77 and later Keihin carbs, and only slightly more reason on earlier ones. The 77 and later have berrylium needles and stainless steel jets. Tragic.
Well, I'm assuming your reference was to Wing carbs in general. I was referring to the wide range of bikes that are covered on the HondaTwins site primarily but I'm guessing it holds true for most Hondas, particularly applied to jets. Aftermarket kits often include improper sizes and as mentioned above, often unmarked as well. The people who get stung the easiest are those who are new to vintage bikes... and many of those also take those vintage bikes to local shop for repairs they often unnecessarily believe they can't do themselves, and encounter people who were born well after the bike was built being the ones working on them. Double bad.
Carb rebuild kits in my mind are the bane of the vintage industry, and always have been. This of course does not include Randall's stuff (which not containing metering parts are not technically rebuild kits but rather o-ring and gasket kits like the OEM ones) or the OEM packing sets.
Post Reply

Return to “Mike Nixon's Spot”