Considering the GL1000 Ignition in Particular

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mikenixon
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Re: Considering the GL1000 Ignition in Particular

#16

Post by mikenixon »

Yup. But not all magneto systems use points. Polaris and Kawasaki utility vehicles, Honda generators, Toro lawnmowers, etc. all use transistorized magneto. It is still current.
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Re: Considering the GL1000 Ignition in Particular

#17

Post by 82aspy »

i wasn't clear

points are still widely used in certified aviation piston engines today
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Re: Considering the GL1000 Ignition in Particular

#18

Post by ericheath »

Curious, how did Dyna unintentionally decrease the advance, larger rotor/magnet?
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Re: Considering the GL1000 Ignition in Particular

#19

Post by mikenixon »

ericheath wrote:Curious, how did Dyna unintentionally decrease the advance, larger rotor/magnet?
Yes. The rotor that replaces the ignition advancer cam is thicker, making the advancer's flyweights rest in a partly deployed position, thus reducing the total advance amount by this much. As I say, Dyna may have corrected this by now, it has been a while since I have installed one.
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Re: Considering the GL1000 Ignition in Particular

#20

Post by mikenixon »

82aspy wrote:i wasn't clear

points are still widely used in certified aviation piston engines today
Ah, yes. I wasn't aware of that. I have read much of the dual mags and so forth, redundancy epitomized, that. Mainly, I have read, due to th frequent plug fouling that was common due to heavily leaded fuel.

The reason I mentioned magneto in the article was to differentiate it from ET, to show it as the predecessor to Kettering, and to illustrate collapsing field theory.
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Re: Considering the GL1000 Ignition in Particular

#21

Post by ericheath »

Playing with fire here, and probably a foolish question, but the springs on the advancers are 37 years old. They are likely weaker and allowing the advance to come on sooner than original. Is there another fix besides new springs? I remember members asking this before, but no suitable springs were available. So the foolish question is: could you lighten the arms of the advancers by drilling some holes in them?? Would that be a help? Or is it the other way around, that weight could be added? I guess it's really an unscientific crap shoot, but it has crossed my Red Green mind as a possible modification. Insert duct tape jokes here.
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Re: Considering the GL1000 Ignition in Particular

#22

Post by mikenixon »

Well, did you hear the one about the duct tape used for..... :-D

I think before I would go that route I would look for a replacement advancer on eBay or from among the members here.
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Re: Considering the GL1000 Ignition in Particular

#23

Post by salukispeed »

Adding weight to the arms would bring the advance in sooner and make it slower to return to base setting which can agrivate a slow return to idle symptom . I have closed the eye on the end of the springs a little to slightly shorten them which can help a tiny bit. To lighten the arms slightly slows the advance coming in so there are small things you can do, but I would use a good timing light and tach to determine what you start with and what your changes give you.
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Re: Considering the GL1000 Ignition in Particular

#24

Post by ianstaley »

I have read this closely as this will be on my list as I refurbish my own GL1000, with regard to the springs are old and over time become lengthened and weaker. Now I am no metallurgist, but all spring steel work hardens and the springs memory in the metal slowly loose their memory over time so the springiness decreases. Please tell me if I am wrong, I stopped using metal 35 years ago to become a software specialist. But can the springs not be re heat treated to help return their springiness?

Please feel free to shoot me if I am wrong.
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Re: Considering the GL1000 Ignition in Particular

#25

Post by mikenixon »

Pow! :-). Hell, I don't know..... :-)

On the subject of tuning the advance curve by changing the weights, Honda themselves did that year to year on all their bikes. They even played with advancers that had two different (four altogether) stages of weights, one that deployed first and when that one had functioned for a certain spread of rpm a second that chimed in to create a kink in the curve. (Today's systems do this electronically of course, even changing the basic curve altogether depending on engine load and other factors.) And, interestingly, reading some very old car tuning books will reveal that at one time custom-"curving" a distributor was very common. I think we have got far afield here, and I remind us all that poor performance symptoms still fall mostly into the basics that they always have, and not into all these esoteric areas. Fun to talk about, but not very practical I am afraid.
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Re: Considering the GL1000 Ignition in Particular

#26

Post by C5Paul »

I'd like to respectfully jump in and ask...If you decide to replace your points ignition with something electronic, why choose a system that uses advancer weights and springs? They are part of the reason automotive designs have moved forward with fully electronic management, aren't they?

I'd also like to comment on the statement made earlier in this thread..."the stock coils tested good". Not faulting the mechanic but I hear this said too often without further explanation. A coil can test just fine until high loads or temperatures are met, and then spark energy takes a new path of lesser resistance (internal short) rather than jumping the plug gap (higher resistance).

If there is a short in the coil, often it does not show up in a test (even though it might be tested under an artificial load). In my dealership experience i can say that a coil which tests faulty...probably is. A coil that tests good, MIGHT be good, might be bad.

Paper wrapped "I" core coils must endure high heat from excessive coil saturation, they can fail from sustained vibration, and eventually can experience internal shorting between wire wraps, which reduces voltage. OEM coils are designed and manufactured the same as popular aftermarket replacement coils on most motorcycles.

An interesting design change is the Section Bobbin coil. It has an improved structure to reduce vibration and shorts which cause coil failure. Currently I am only aware of two manufacturers using these for motorcycles although I'm guessing more will use them in the future.

Thoughts?
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Re: Considering the GL1000 Ignition in Particular

#27

Post by mikenixon »

C5Paul wrote:I'd like to respectfully jump in and ask...If you decide to replace your points ignition with something electronic, why choose a system that uses advancer weights and springs? They are part of the reason automotive designs have moved forward with fully electronic management, aren't they?

I'd also like to comment on the statement made earlier in this thread..."the stock coils tested good". Not faulting the mechanic but I hear this said too often without further explanation. A coil can test just fine until high loads or temperatures are met, and then spark energy takes a new path of lesser resistance (internal short) rather than jumping the plug gap (higher resistance).

If there is a short in the coil, often it does not show up in a test (even though it might be tested under an artificial load). In my dealership experience i can say that a coil which tests faulty...probably is. A coil that tests good, MIGHT be good, might be bad.

Paper wrapped "I" core coils must endure high heat from excessive coil saturation, they can fail from sustained vibration, and eventually can experience internal shorting between wire wraps, which reduces voltage. OEM coils are designed and manufactured the same as popular aftermarket replacement coils on most motorcycles.

An interesting design change is the Section Bobbin coil. It has an improved structure to reduce vibration and shorts which cause coil failure. Currently I am only aware of two manufacturers using these for motorcycles although I'm guessing more will use them in the future.

Thoughts?
Haven't heard of that technology but re coil testing I couldn't agree with you more, and I have written many articles you may find on my website re the proper testing of ignition coils. The only correct way is dynamically, not with an ohmmeter. I work for a major Big Five manufacturer and I am not award of any innovations we are making in new ignition coil designs other than revisions to the placement of the primary and secondary windings for the reduction of RFI. I.e., instead of the usual primary on the outside and secondary on the inside arrangement for collapsing field ignition coils (road bikes) they are increasingly reversed.
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Re: Considering the GL1000 Ignition in Particular

#28

Post by C5Paul »

Are there disadvantages to swapping the coil placement?

We use Section Bobbin coils to reduce vibration related failures and multiple sparking to increase fuel efficiency.
Most riders don't know how a coil looks with it's clothing removed...lol

Interesting. Thank you for sharing with us Mike!
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Re: Considering the GL1000 Ignition in Particular

#29

Post by mikenixon »

As for why a coil would prefer to have its "coils" placed in a certain arrangement, i.e. inner vs. outer, it appears Kettering, the inventor of the device, had in mind e magnetic field's collapse natural inward collapse, and that by putting the secondary on the inside it would be in the best position to receive the most benefit from the ebbing field. However, it now appears from what has transpired lately, as well as individual experience, that the benefit is small, possibly even negligible. Kawasaki's vendor is doing it to reduce RFai, presumably and apparently with no effect on ignition performqnce. In countries other than the U.S. radio waves are becoming a big issue, as they were in the early days in Canada and the UK. But then again, stick coils are very low performance to begin with...

Further Reading:
http://www.motorcycleproject/motorcycle ... ntech.html
http://www.motorcycleproject/motorcycle ... etech.html
http://www.motorcycleproject/motorcycle/text/u-gap.html
http://www.motorcycleproject/motorcycle ... hcign.html
http://www.motorcycleproject/motorcycle ... nition.swf
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Re: Considering the GL1000 Ignition in Particular

#30

Post by C5Paul »

Mike,

Your articles are well written and packed with information. I am surprised you haven't mentioned the technology we use, since it has been around for 20 years already. Multiple sparking (but not like MSD) and dual optical triggers have got to make you drool, or at least be curious. You are just the guy to appreciate super fast coil saturation with easily adjustable settings, fully programmable timing curves, and crank position tracking every few degrees of rotation.

I can't discuss it here, but PM or email me if you ever want to know more. Thank you again for sending me to your articles. You have so much information I'll have to read them several times to soak it all up.
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