GL1100 with throttle bodies (Fuel Injection)

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Rednaxs60
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Re: GL1100 with throttle bodies (Fuel Injection)

#196

Post by Rednaxs60 »

socrace wrote:That's good info on the sensors. As for ignition ignitors, I'm "pretty sure" that any 5 wire Honda Ignitor from the early 80's will work, just leave the blue wire unconnected. Here's an ignitor schematic that may or not be accurate; looks like there should be no problems if it is (blue wire is left side sensor input)...
HondaIgnitionSchematic.png
Read your thread again mainly because I'm researching the history of the Honda turbo and fuel injection. Have had a lot of good reading on the CX500-650 forum. Have also started a thread on Classic Goldwings providing information I have found regarding this history quest.

Great info and a job well done. Thanks for the info on the spark igniter. I was wondering which wire would not get hooked up. Have found two suppliers of aftermarket igniters.

Interested now in the IAC system as this seems to be an issue with the older FI system on the 1200. More research to do on it to understand and see what can be done - maybe.

Again, a great read as are the other threads.

Cheers
"When writing the Story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen."

Ernest

1985 GL1200 Limited Edition
2014 Can-Am Spyder RT LE
2021 Royal Enfield Himalayan
1995 GL1500 SE CDN Edition (sold)
2012 Suzuki DL1000 VStrom (sold)
Ontario 1985 GL1200 Limited Edition (sold)
2008 GL1800 (sold)
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Rednaxs60
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Re: GL1100 with throttle bodies (Fuel Injection)

#197

Post by Rednaxs60 »

Also found a good PB sensor replacement that is more modern and mirrors the Honda OEM Pb sensors - got it off the CX500-650 forum.

It is for a late model Suzuki motorcycle but works flawlessly on my '85 LTD. Product is Brand: Denso.
Type number: 100798-5630. Suzuki orderingnumber: 15620-35F00.
Suzuki description: Sensor Boost, IAP (Inlet Air Pressure) sensor.

Cheers
"When writing the Story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen."

Ernest

1985 GL1200 Limited Edition
2014 Can-Am Spyder RT LE
2021 Royal Enfield Himalayan
1995 GL1500 SE CDN Edition (sold)
2012 Suzuki DL1000 VStrom (sold)
Ontario 1985 GL1200 Limited Edition (sold)
2008 GL1800 (sold)
socrace
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Re: GL1100 with throttle bodies (Fuel Injection)

#198

Post by socrace »

Good work finding the replacement map sensor!
As can be seen in the 1985 Honda EFI wiring diagram below, the IAC is just a thermo valve wired in parallel with the fuel pump and has no real computer control. Many early Bosch and Japanese automotive efi systems used a similar type valve. Although, seem to remember there's a coolant connection also, which could make it hard to replace exactly.
Untitled.png
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1981 Goldwing Standard - efi'd, other stuff
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Rednaxs60
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Re: GL1100 with throttle bodies (Fuel Injection)

#199

Post by Rednaxs60 »

The Suzuki sensor has been used by the boys over on the CX500-650 forum for over 5 years. Lots of good info to be read. They took an original Honda OEM PB sensor apart and looked at the internal circuitry. They found that the connections inside were crimp joints and the sensor that failed was an intermittent failure - sometimes it would make contact, sometimes not. This Suzuki sensor is modern technology and manufacturing techniques. Did a check and compared the signal from the Suzuki and Honda sensors, extremely close and linear.

Here are the readings I got:

Suzuki Sensor - read in 3 columns

Inch of Hg/VDC/Delta

0 /3.45 /0.35
5 /3.1 /0.45
10 /2.65 /0.47
15 /2.18 /0.45
20 /1.73 /0.47
25 /1.26 /1.26

OEM PB Sensor - read in 3 columns

Inch of Hg/VDC/Delta

0 /3.63 /0.49
5 /3.14 /0.55
10 /2.59 /0.59
15 /2.0 /0.57
20 /1.43 /0.55
25 /0.88 /0.88

Found a site and Honda now uses idle air control valve nomenclature to identify this valve in its bike designs.

Don't quite understand how it fits in.
Been researching the FI system as a whole and find the more I dig, the better the understanding.

Looking for information on the air system of the 1200 FI bikes. Working on understanding the IAC valve and the system as a whole including the reed valves. Have found where the air valve is not only for idling - provides air past the throttle plates, but is used when decelerating and the throttle is closed. Will be looking at putting an inspection adapter and monitor the signals to the air valve. Will be interesting to see what happens.

Liked what you did with your FI setup, using the Ford IAC and only one PB sensor. I have read on one of the forums where a fellow who has/had an '85 LTD and uses/used one PB sensor to operate his bike and it apparently worked well. Another item to research. Wouldn't be hard to make up a temporary harness and give it a try. Join the vacuum hoses from the manifold together, hook in one PB sensor and wire the PB sensor to the ECU connections.

There is a coolant connection as well (2). Think this air valve may have 2 separate operating modes. Since this is an agricultural system, at start up and cold, the coolant temp controls the valve, and when at operating temp and on the road, the ECU controls the air valve. Just a theory right now.

Checked mine and it is out of spec, comes in at 104 ohms. Spec is between 60 and 100 ohm. Doesn't appear to come apart, but found one in NJ - NOS. Priceless piece of gold I have to say.

Cheers
"When writing the Story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen."

Ernest

1985 GL1200 Limited Edition
2014 Can-Am Spyder RT LE
2021 Royal Enfield Himalayan
1995 GL1500 SE CDN Edition (sold)
2012 Suzuki DL1000 VStrom (sold)
Ontario 1985 GL1200 Limited Edition (sold)
2008 GL1800 (sold)
socrace
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Re: GL1100 with throttle bodies (Fuel Injection)

#200

Post by socrace »

Here is a link to the kind of iac that I was thinking of (although it's not cheap either): http://a.co/h4SpS3F
A description of how it works:
"There are valves that need no control other than a 12V supply when the fuel pump is on. These heat up a bi-metalic strip that rotates a plate inside the valve and shuts the air down as the engine heats up, these are known as Extra Air Valves. They are becoming rare and hard to get hold of, they were fitted to various early efi engines. The Idle Speed has to be controlled with the throttle stop when using these type of valves, as the valve is only used to add air when the engine is cold."
The stock Honda unit works the same as this, except it has additional coolant warming that this one doesn't need.
1981 Goldwing Standard - efi'd, other stuff
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Re: GL1100 with throttle bodies (Fuel Injection)

#201

Post by Rednaxs60 »

Found information regarding the Honda PGMFI system and specifically the idle air control valve: http://www.ej9.ru/civic/book/chpt_23.pdf

It describes the two types of IAC valves Honda uses/used. It mentions for the two wire that is installed, the ECU modulates the ground such that the internal valve opens and closes to admit more or less air. The IAC valve is never fully open or closed. Haven't found out how the coolant affects the valve yet, but expect it to have something to do with an expanding wax pellet that exerts force against the internal valve.

There is a test procedure in this article that I will try this weekend. Will let you know what I find.

Thanks for the info on the IAC. Had a look at the Beck Arnley IAC, good option. Would have to have it shipped to a place in the US and picked up. Tried the CDN equivalent of Amazon and EBay and it does not show up.

Cheers
"When writing the Story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen."

Ernest

1985 GL1200 Limited Edition
2014 Can-Am Spyder RT LE
2021 Royal Enfield Himalayan
1995 GL1500 SE CDN Edition (sold)
2012 Suzuki DL1000 VStrom (sold)
Ontario 1985 GL1200 Limited Edition (sold)
2008 GL1800 (sold)
socrace
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Re: GL1100 with throttle bodies (Fuel Injection)

#202

Post by socrace »

Here's one on Amazon.ca: http://a.co/1Mj9HSO
The breathtaking price reflects the fact that these valves were used by Porsche and Mercedes, in addition to Toyota and Honda (same exact part in all cases). Just keep looking and should be able to find one selling for "Toyota" price!
1981 Goldwing Standard - efi'd, other stuff
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Rednaxs60
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Re: GL1100 with throttle bodies (Fuel Injection)

#203

Post by Rednaxs60 »

Thanks for the info, gold plated I think and "priceless".

Did some more reading and in the info I posted, it mentions that the coolant connections are intended to prevent icing of this valve and are there for no other reason. I think this is the reason, but do not intend to ride my bike in weather that would test this theory.

Cheers
"When writing the Story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen."

Ernest

1985 GL1200 Limited Edition
2014 Can-Am Spyder RT LE
2021 Royal Enfield Himalayan
1995 GL1500 SE CDN Edition (sold)
2012 Suzuki DL1000 VStrom (sold)
Ontario 1985 GL1200 Limited Edition (sold)
2008 GL1800 (sold)
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Rednaxs60
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Re: GL1100 with throttle bodies (Fuel Injection)

#204

Post by Rednaxs60 »

socrace wrote:Here is a link to the kind of iac that I was thinking of (although it's not cheap either): http://a.co/h4SpS3F
A description of how it works:
"There are valves that need no control other than a 12V supply when the fuel pump is on. These heat up a bi-metalic strip that rotates a plate inside the valve and shuts the air down as the engine heats up, these are known as Extra Air Valves. They are becoming rare and hard to get hold of, they were fitted to various early efi engines. The Idle Speed has to be controlled with the throttle stop when using these type of valves, as the valve is only used to add air when the engine is cold."
The stock Honda unit works the same as this, except it has additional coolant warming that this one doesn't need.
In my research the 12 VDC supply energizes an internal coil. or as mentioned above, a bi-metallic strip, that activates a rotary idle air valve or a pintle style - both do the same job. The 12 VDC supply that energizes the coil, or in the case presented, is controlled by the ECU by modulating the 12 VDC ground. Since the 12 VDC supply is continuous to the IAC valve during engine operation, use of a bi-metallic strip in the IAC valve that is installed would probably, in my mind, not achieve the aim as good as if a pintle valve was used.

Since the 12 VDC supply is constant, there will always be air bypassing the throttle plates and being used as part of the combustion air. Where this is an advantage is when the throttle is closed. The IAC valve is already open to allow bypass air past the throttle plate(s) providing adequate combustion air on deceleration (good for the emission system), and to prevent/minimize intake reversion (had to read about this one).

Just some thoughts on the above from an old Navy pump kicker. Cheers
"When writing the Story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen."

Ernest

1985 GL1200 Limited Edition
2014 Can-Am Spyder RT LE
2021 Royal Enfield Himalayan
1995 GL1500 SE CDN Edition (sold)
2012 Suzuki DL1000 VStrom (sold)
Ontario 1985 GL1200 Limited Edition (sold)
2008 GL1800 (sold)
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Re: GL1100 with throttle bodies (Fuel Injection)

#205

Post by fish »

I am certainly NOT an expert on EFI-conversions
I am an expert mechanic but I just figure out what is wrong & fix 'em.. NOT engineer 'em
I have often daydreamed about engineering an EFI on WarBird.
I have thought muchly about the IAC & idle speed
I have decided to NOT use an IAC I am planning on just going with a slightly high base idle.. maybe 1100RPM when warm
& see how that works out
Timothy Mark Fisher
Catalina Arizona
"ride it.. don't be one of those guys who will fix it 'til it's broken" (JDVorchek)
"It is not logic or economics that drive a motorcyclist but passion!" (bugdaddy66)
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Re: GL1100 with throttle bodies (Fuel Injection)

#206

Post by Rednaxs60 »

socrace wrote:That's good info on the sensors. As for ignition ignitors, I'm "pretty sure" that any 5 wire Honda Ignitor from the early 80's will work, just leave the blue wire unconnected. Here's an ignitor schematic that may or not be accurate; looks like there should be no problems if it is (blue wire is left side sensor input)...
HondaIgnitionSchematic.png

Here is a site for new spark igniters, reasonable price. Once again, I found this over on the CX500-650 forum. Lots of info out there. Has a blue wire. The CX500T does not use this item, the CX650T does.

http://www.procomeng.com/estore/feature ... 900-a.html

Cheers
"When writing the Story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen."

Ernest

1985 GL1200 Limited Edition
2014 Can-Am Spyder RT LE
2021 Royal Enfield Himalayan
1995 GL1500 SE CDN Edition (sold)
2012 Suzuki DL1000 VStrom (sold)
Ontario 1985 GL1200 Limited Edition (sold)
2008 GL1800 (sold)
socrace
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Re: GL1100 with throttle bodies (Fuel Injection)

#207

Post by socrace »

Fish, you are right to be wary of iac. It's very hard to get right especially on any kind of standard shift vehicle. For example, when decelerating in gear, the iac can suddenly try to take over. My bike just uses iac to raise idle a fixed amount when coolant less than 150 degF, then stays constant above that.
Rednax60, those new ignitors are the most reasonably priced I've seen!
1981 Goldwing Standard - efi'd, other stuff
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Re: GL1100 with throttle bodies (Fuel Injection)

#208

Post by Rednaxs60 »

The gents over on the CX500-650 forum are using these, plug and play. Need to have options.

Cheers
"When writing the Story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen."

Ernest

1985 GL1200 Limited Edition
2014 Can-Am Spyder RT LE
2021 Royal Enfield Himalayan
1995 GL1500 SE CDN Edition (sold)
2012 Suzuki DL1000 VStrom (sold)
Ontario 1985 GL1200 Limited Edition (sold)
2008 GL1800 (sold)
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Re: GL1100 with throttle bodies (Fuel Injection)

#209

Post by Sugs »

Couldn't you just control an IAC manually with a rheostat to raise the idle during warmup, kinda like a choke knob for a carbureted motor?
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Re: GL1100 with throttle bodies (Fuel Injection)

#210

Post by fish »

good point sugs
even a toggle switch off/on
Timothy Mark Fisher
Catalina Arizona
"ride it.. don't be one of those guys who will fix it 'til it's broken" (JDVorchek)
"It is not logic or economics that drive a motorcyclist but passion!" (bugdaddy66)
"I fully agree with fish, well at least 27% of the time."(Casper)
"Why do you have to ruin a perfectly good thread with common sense"(Placerville)
"my best guess for an answer would be a stream of complex expletives" (Transitman)
"I like a cold beer with my beer" (OldeWing)
"Most of us like the sport of wrenching too." (fred camper)
"Now go ride the heck out of it, til mother says do your chores"(Gowing)
"I agree with Fish" (Salukispeed)
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