My very first 1977 Honda GL1000 =D

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aaronrecine
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Re: My very first 1977 Honda GL1000 =D

#16

Post by aaronrecine »

desertrefugee wrote:lol. Had to laugh about photo #3 down in your sequence. Although probably not, it looks like the machine drew first blood. I know I've shed blood for a few...
haha, just a little marvel. No blood yet, but I'm due haha
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aaronrecine
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Re: My very first 1977 Honda GL1000 =D

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ericheath wrote:Great post. We picture sluts are very happy.
No problem! Happy to share.
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Re: My very first 1977 Honda GL1000 =D

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Track T 2411 wrote:Welcome from Wisconsin. It's always nice to have some back story. Enjoy the ride!
Thank you :) Can't wait to get my GL on the road.
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Re: My very first 1977 Honda GL1000 =D

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5speed wrote:welcome to the site. great intro.
Thank you :) Excited to be here
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Re: My very first 1977 Honda GL1000 =D

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This last Tuesday I went to meet a guy from craigslist who had posted an ad for a GL1000 seat in really good condition for $160. When I had spoke to him on the phone he told me he had a ton of other parts if I was interested. I told him I wanted to purchase the entire lot as I was doing a full restoration and wanted to grab anything I could get a hand on.

Long story short I picked up everything you see in the pictures below for $400. I still can't believe I got such a great deal. This recent score puts my project WAY in the green and has opened up my budget so I can purchase most everything else I need within the next 2-3 pay periods.

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And here is a snapshot of the spreadsheet I made of all the NOS parts

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Also a brand new in the box water pump as shown in the pictures.

I have a Dyna-S, Dyan 5 ohm coils, Copper Core wire and NGK boots (XD05F) in the mail and will shortly be ordering everything on my wish list from Randakk's. More updates soon!
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aaronrecine
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Re: My very first 1977 Honda GL1000 =D

#21

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If you'd like to see more video's and pictures of the build feel free to follow me on my instagram
http://www.instagram.com/aaronrecine
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robin1731
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Re: My very first 1977 Honda GL1000 =D

#22

Post by robin1731 »

aaronrecine wrote:snp...................
I have a Dyna-S, Dyan 5 ohm coils,
I hope you mean 3 ohm coils. The green ones.

.
1976 Goldwing Super Sport
1985 Honda Elite
1976 KZ900 Dragbike
1992 ZX7 Dragbike (KZ900 style motor w/NOS)
and a rotation of various purchases
Randakk approved Carb Rebuilder
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aaronrecine
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Re: My very first 1977 Honda GL1000 =D

#23

Post by aaronrecine »

From what I understand, as confirmed by the master tech at my shop, the 5 ohm coils will draw less and be easier on the charging system. I also found this within another forum and the math seems to hold up. It should be noted this math was done for a CB550 instead of a GL1000, but the theory should be sound.

Here is a link to the original post I pulled this quote from:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=84420.0

"The answer IS definitive, IF you care to pay attention to physics and math.
The points draw power through the coils during 195 degrees of crankshaft rotation.
195/360 (degrees of rotation) = .54 or 54% coil on time for EACH coil/points set.

The DC resistance of ONE coil primary and the voltage applied to it determines the current/power draw of the coil.
12.6V / 5 ohms = 2.52 amps. And 2.52 amps x 12.6V = 31.72 Watts There are TWO coils for a maximum consumption of 63.504 Watts. However, the points only allow each coil to be on during 54% of crank rotation.
So, 54% of 63.504 watts = 34.29 Watts power consumption. (<-- STOCK IGNITION SYSTEM)


The Dyna-S dwell time (coil ON time) is 315 degrees of crank rotation (using Hondaman's ignition analysis).
315/360 (degrees of rotation) = 0.876 or 88% coil on time for EACH trigger switch.

Still using 5 ohm coils, the power draw increases just because they are on for a longer duration of time.
There are 2 coils driven by the battery. While the coils draw the same power as with points when they are closed, the current power draw time for the electronic switch is increased from 34.29 Watts to 55.88 watts power consumption, just by using the Dyna-S.

Now add 3 ohm coils And the Dyna-S
12.6V / 3 ohms = 4.2 amps. And 4.2 amps x 12.6V = 52.92 Watts There are TWO coils for a maximum consumption of 105.84 Watts. The Dyna-S allows each coil to be on during 88% of crank rotation.
So, 88% of 105.84 watts = 93.14 Watts power consumption. (<-- DYNA-S and 3 ohm coils)

So, the "high performance" changeover sucks far more than double the power as the stock system. (more about this later)

Can YOUR charging system still keep up the normal bike loads AND an increase of consumed power? This depends on your model bike and how you ride it.
You want your lights on? Then most of the SOHC4s with stock ignition draw about 10-11 amps, when lights and key switch are on. That's about 120-140 Watts.
The alternator's outputs vary by model and the RPM they are spun at. The 400, for example, is rated at 156 watts @ 5000 RPM. Note that idle RPM is about 1/3 of maximum output. If you add an additional 60 watt ignition system load to the normal stock load you will have a 180-200 watt load on a system capable restoring 156 watts max. You better hope that your alternator was made to perform better than minimum performance specs at the factory AND that you will never run the engine below 5000 RPM, or your battery will run flat in under an hour, and you have a wonderful push toy.

But, what does the "high performance" ignition system do for you in exchange for short battery life?
The spark plugs fire with energy stored in the coils when the points/ electronic switch while is turned off. This allows the energy field created by the coils to collapse. The collapse continues until there is enough voltage the create a low resistance plasma channel between the gap electrodes. This is when current flows through the system and spark occurs. Notice that while there must be enough energy in the coil for this to occur, that actual voltage need for the event is determined by the spark gap (the gaseous conditions between the gap), NOT the coil max capability. This means that peak potential voltage that the coil is capable of producing does NOT translate to higher spark voltage. This is only what salesmen and "believers" want you to assume in order to separate money from you wallet. ALL the testimonials from "believers and "marks" that have bought the lie mean nothing in the real world of true physical behavior.

When do you "NEED" higher spark potential?
1 - Change the plasma channel conditions between the spark electrodes. Higher pressures require higher voltage to create the channel (I.E higher compression ratio.)
2- Increase the spark GAP between the electrodes. A larger gap require more voltage to form the plasma channel.
3- extend the useful life of spark plugs. As spark electrodes wear, they actually need higher voltages to form the plasma channel.

But, does the extra power of the system add to rear wheel HP on the road? No, this is preposterous. Even if you did add 60 watts consumption to the ignition system and delivered it to the combustion chamber. 60 watts = 0.080461325 HP. And remember half is that total increase in power consumption is wasted, sparking between exhaust and intake stroke. It CAN be logically argued that other engine changes that (in turn) require higher spark voltages will increase the rear wheel power. But, ignition power alone does not not, can not.

The Dyna-S does provide a consistency of spark (timing and duration), that the points trigger system can't maintain during extended use. This is due to the high currents during make and break of the point contacts, causing overheating and distorting the contacts themselves. These effects are cumulative. Devices that reduce the current flowing through the points greatly extends their stability and reliability. It is too bad the Dyna-S doesn't mimic the stock points dwell/ points cam time durations. If it did, it would be a total win and worth more of the inflated price they ask for a short sighted design. IMO

For street use conditions 5 ohm coils are most appropriate.
For modified engines, racing applications, 3 ohm coils may be a better choice (other factors to be considered), IF your charging system is up to the task or you don't have far to push the bike back to an external battery charger.

Maybe someone will actually read this?"

If I am way off here, please correct me. I already sent Dyna a message a few days ago to make sure I am setting everything up correctly. Once I hear back from them I will report what they sent.
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Re: My very first 1977 Honda GL1000 =D

#24

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aaronrecine wrote:
desertrefugee wrote:lol. Had to laugh about photo #3 down in your sequence. Although probably not, it looks like the machine drew first blood. I know I've shed blood for a few...
haha, just a little marvel. No blood yet, but I'm due haha
Sometimes these things require a blood sacrifice when bringing them back from the dead lol. Looking good!
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Re: My very first 1977 Honda GL1000 =D

#25

Post by robin1731 »

I go by the people that manufacture and sell the parts. If they say use a 3ohm coil that's what I'm going to use. I alone have probably 100 bikes or more out there that I've put that combo in. Mostly street bikes. All different brands and sizes. None have come back with a charging issue. anim-cheers1
.
1976 Goldwing Super Sport
1985 Honda Elite
1976 KZ900 Dragbike
1992 ZX7 Dragbike (KZ900 style motor w/NOS)
and a rotation of various purchases
Randakk approved Carb Rebuilder
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Re: My very first 1977 Honda GL1000 =D

#26

Post by Irishman1 »

Welcome to the world of gold wings and wrenching. I’ve restored all of my 7-1975 gl1000’s and 1-76 and one 77 gl1000 plus my 78 cb750 and both cbx’s back to stock coils ( some had dyna’s) and they all run wonderfully at idle and speed. But that’s just my 2cents worth. I like them restored to stock.
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In the garage:


1975 Honda gl1000 sulfur yellow( my first!) NGW BOTM February 2020
1975 Honda gl1000 red (Ruth's free bike) NGW BOTM January 2017

1975 honda gl1000 red. Eariest of my 75's 2/75 date
1975 Honda gl1000 blue green 5/75
1975 Honda gl1000 blue green 3/75
1975 Honda gl1000 blue green 4/75
1976 Honda gl1000 sulfur yellow
1977 honda gl1000 red black, Ian's next bike
1976 Honda gl1000 red next restoration
1975 Honda cb750 rebuilding soon!
1975 Honda gl1000 2/75 blue/green
1978 Honda cb750f super sport
1979 Honda cb750f super sport
1979 Honda CBX
1980 Honda CBX
1981 Honda CBX
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low-side
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Re: My very first 1977 Honda GL1000 =D

#27

Post by low-side »

I would not worry about the difference between 3 ohm and 5 ohm coils too much. These old points ignition Honda's usually had 4-5 ohm coils stock and work well with Dyna ignitions; I think most folks do use 3 ohm coils when they install the Dyna S and coils at the same time. I'm going to do a write up on my ignition mods next week. Pamco Ignition with Dyna 5 ohm coils with the system on a relay. I did something similar on my CB750 a few years back and it did great things for ease of starting and smooth running at all engine speeds. I was also able to run a .045" plug gap in 10.5:1 compression cylinders.
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Re: My very first 1977 Honda GL1000 =D

#28

Post by ericheath »

Seems like some serious theory here, which is okay. But to correct some facts, or confirm some facts. I thought Dyna recommends “at least” 3 ohm coils. So 5 ohms coils are okay, but won’t give as big a spark at various rpm and will likely run short of energy somewhere at higher rpm.

Stock 1000 coils have lower than 3 ohm coils. The entire system is about 5 ohms but the stock ballast resistor is 3 ohms. Randakk’s site says they are “around” 2 ohms on the primary.

Aaron, since you seem to be knowledgeable of the math and theory end, does the 3 ohm ballast save energy consumption or waste it? I’m wondering because of the heat given off. Also, in the use of the electrical energy, the “waste spark” uses far less energy because there is no compression to resist its plasma jump. I have read as low as only a few hundred volts. If the ballast wastes it in the form of heat, you aren’t conserving any available energy from the charging system, are you? Same with five ohm coils?? It can increase life of the points, but I’m unsure if it is conserving the system’s overall electrical capacity.

Before getting a PowerArc I have wondered if using a rev counter switch to bypass the resistor at higher rpm could assist making a meaningful spark. It could but that’s a complication and not cheap.

If everything is up to snuff, the complete stock system seems to function fine across all ranges. Having a high $$ end system which delivers three sparks across all rpm ranges, I must say, I cannot feel any difference between it and my Dyna and 3 ohm coils, or a stock system that’s healthy when operated as recommended by Honda. I’m not convinced the three sparks does anything to help. The part I do think helps is the timing program which controls timing by rpm not springs and centrifugal forces and mechanical friction. I haven’t got the best hearing but my bike seems to respond well at all rpm in any gear. I can cruise along in fifth gear at 1300 rpm and give it throttle and get pretty decent response, despite sounding like a tractor. If I let off at those low rpm, I do get drive shaft jacking- or whatever it’s called- so I avoid that. With a stock system driving at those rpm, I can hear a little spark knock. I’m assuming the advance mechanism is not releasing and hence the reason for the advice to keep your early Wings at around 3000 rpm or more?? The advance is full and keeping it at 2700 and higher takes a bobbing advance mechanism out of the equation.

A second “bonus” to the PowerArc/C5 system that I hadn’t noticed until you posted this is that it has lower coil on saturation time (or degrees crankshaft rotation.) It is only on for 40-60 degrees up to around 4000 rpm. The second and third sparks have low saturation times, only 5 to 12 degrees. This could save available energy from the charging system???
Whatever I suggest here should be given ample time for a moderator to delicately correct. I apologize in advance.
77 WING, 1200 engine with 77 heads, cams, gl1100 foot pegs, Magna V65 front end, 764A carbs, [-gone Suzuki M109 monoshock--, replaced with gl1100 shocks] gl 1200 swing arm, gl1500 final drive, wheel and rear brakes Valkyrie seat, Meanstreak tank, Sportster pipes, Power Arc ignition off crank.
77 Wing. black
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aaronrecine
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Re: My very first 1977 Honda GL1000 =D

#29

Post by aaronrecine »

Hello Everyone!

The Dyna-S, Dyna 5 ohm coils, 7mm copper core wire, NGK xd05f plug caps and fresh D8EA plugs are all installed and running beautifully. I had already ordered the 5 ohm coils along with everything else and in the name of science and impatience, I decided to give them a shot. These coils seem to perform fine, but I haven't put the engine under load yet, so more to come on 5 ohm performance later on. I will buy the 3 ohm coils if I determine they are needed.

One thing I thought might be noteworthy is the newer Dyna-S GL1000 ignition's have more adjustment travel and are in a slimmer package. Much more room now under the points cap which is nice.

Before installing the Dyna-S I removed the mechanical advance, cleaned it and lubed it. It was very dirty.

I salvaged the yellow and blue leads from the dead coils I had laying around and wired them up to the new Dyna coils. Ran new black wire from the coils to the 12v switched, just as it was stock. As for the 12v switched for the Dyna-S, I opted for an alligator clamp as I still have a few electrical gremlins I need to tackle which could interfere with the switched feed I would splice into.

I set static timing, fired it up, got as smooth of an idle as I could, set dynamic and confirmed the advance is functioning properly.

I was blown away by how much better the dyna-s improved engine performance. I knew my ignition system was pretty tired, but had figured the carburetors were the main source of the poor idle and response. The carburetors still need a full rebuild, but I decided to take them off and give them a quick bath in B-12 Chemtool.

I cleaned all jets and idle passages, removed all the pucks except for one that was stuck ( I'll address this when I really rebuild them ), set the float height again ( was a little off all around so I'm glad I double checked my work ), greased all the tired o-rings, set the idle mixture screws and put it all back together.

When I first fired it up it gave me a LOUD backfire. I was very confused and thought maybe I had screwed up the float height and flooded a cylinder. I looked at the write up Randakk has on float height and confirmed I had done it right going over it in my head. Started looking at the ignition system and turns out I had some of the plug wires on wrong haha. Easy fix.

It ran a little smoother, kinda, but I knew the carburetors had to be out of sync.

I got out the vacuum gauge and sync'd the carburetors and WOW they were off. The screw head for the linkage sync adjust was really chewed up by the previous person to work on these 76' carbs so I knew I would have to sync them eventually. I took my time and made sure that everything was set absolutely perfect.

Do the carbs need a rebuild still? In my opinion, absolutely, BUT can I get away with it as is for now? Absolutely as well.

Below are a few more pictures of the progress and 2 videos.

The first videos is of the carburetor sync in progress.

The second video is of the bike idling and revving up after a few more seafoam heat cycles. This video was recorded on my phone, but the audio is from a Rhode NT1-A Condenser mic into my presonus recording interface. Put a little eq / compression on it and sync'd it all up. This is a much better representation of what the GL sounds like in person.

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Here is the video as I'm just about finished syncing the carburetors ( https://youtu.be/be-Pok95vcs )


Here is the video of the bike idling and revving with a high quality mic on the exhaust ( https://youtu.be/BsIOI0-MQ58 )
Last edited by aaronrecine on Tue May 15, 2018 1:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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aaronrecine
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Re: My very first 1977 Honda GL1000 =D

#30

Post by aaronrecine »

ericheath wrote:Seems like some serious theory here, which is okay. But to correct some facts, or confirm some facts. I thought Dyna recommends “at least” 3 ohm coils. So 5 ohms coils are okay, but won’t give as big a spark at various rpm and will likely run short of energy somewhere at higher rpm.

Stock 1000 coils have lower than 3 ohm coils. The entire system is about 5 ohms but the stock ballast resistor is 3 ohms. Randakk’s site says they are “around” 2 ohms on the primary.

Aaron, since you seem to be knowledgeable of the math and theory end, does the 3 ohm ballast save energy consumption or waste it? I’m wondering because of the heat given off. Also, in the use of the electrical energy, the “waste spark” uses far less energy because there is no compression to resist its plasma jump. I have read as low as only a few hundred volts. If the ballast wastes it in the form of heat, you aren’t conserving any available energy from the charging system, are you? Same with five ohm coils?? It can increase life of the points, but I’m unsure if it is conserving the system’s overall electrical capacity.

Before getting a PowerArc I have wondered if using a rev counter switch to bypass the resistor at higher rpm could assist making a meaningful spark. It could but that’s a complication and not cheap.

If everything is up to snuff, the complete stock system seems to function fine across all ranges. Having a high $$ end system which delivers three sparks across all rpm ranges, I must say, I cannot feel any difference between it and my Dyna and 3 ohm coils, or a stock system that’s healthy when operated as recommended by Honda. I’m not convinced the three sparks does anything to help. The part I do think helps is the timing program which controls timing by rpm not springs and centrifugal forces and mechanical friction. I haven’t got the best hearing but my bike seems to respond well at all rpm in any gear. I can cruise along in fifth gear at 1300 rpm and give it throttle and get pretty decent response, despite sounding like a tractor. If I let off at those low rpm, I do get drive shaft jacking- or whatever it’s called- so I avoid that. With a stock system driving at those rpm, I can hear a little spark knock. I’m assuming the advance mechanism is not releasing and hence the reason for the advice to keep your early Wings at around 3000 rpm or more?? The advance is full and keeping it at 2700 and higher takes a bobbing advance mechanism out of the equation.

A second “bonus” to the PowerArc/C5 system that I hadn’t noticed until you posted this is that it has lower coil on saturation time (or degrees crankshaft rotation.) It is only on for 40-60 degrees up to around 4000 rpm. The second and third sparks have low saturation times, only 5 to 12 degrees. This could save available energy from the charging system???
I have a basic working knowledge of ohm's law and a little more, but that quote I pulled was pushing the limits for me. Just take what I say with a grain of salt, I don't want to mislead anyone.

1. Ballast resistor lowers voltage which means the coil can't draw as many amps if I am not mistaken.
2. I agree with you on the heat energy. 5 ohms with a ballast and a coil or just 5 ohm coils makes no difference to the charging system. My concern was with the longer coil on saturation time of the Dyna-S. If you had a points system and a dyna system, both with 5 ohm coils, no ballast resistor, the Dyna in theory would have higher wattage draw. Plus if I had the 3 ohm system id be drawing even more. I think haha.
3. A switched ballast would be really cool to try! No idea how it would impact high rpm performance.
4. Eliminating the mechanical advance is a new one. I have a little stutter down low, but according to Randakk you can change the air jets and off idle response is fixed. I would love to use an EGA and compare all 3 ignition systems one day for fun.

Thanks for your response! I love this community.
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