Meet Valerie; 1976 GL1000 Custom Transformation

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Taylorious
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Re: Meet Valerie; 1976 GL1000 Custom Transformation

#61

Post by Taylorious »

Another weird thing I've noticed;

With Ignition, Killswitch, and RLU bypassed, I can get the voltage to 'float' at 12.3v with the 15A fuse on the bottom of the fuse box out.
Bike has all dash/running lights on, and all seems normal. Solenoid *clicks* when "Start" is pressed, and headlight goes out while held down. No drop in voltage...

However;

I can't Kickstart it. It just spins.
Then; if I connect the 15A fuse, I see immediate drops in voltage (slowly) and heard engine starter CRANK very slightly BY ITSELF WITHOUT SOLENOID LEAD CONNECTED, and on a later test to see if I could duplicate it, a loud POP (backfire) from the exhaust... again... this is with NO PRESS ON "START" or the Solenoid -to- Starter lead connected.

I'm pretty stumped. Thinking of taking it to a local mechanic, but I really don't want to.
WITNESS ME :flamer

If the only tool you have is a HAMMER, everything begins to look like a nail

Santa Cruzian by Way-Of-Oakland.

76' GL1000 "gonna-be-something-special" build
04' KLX300R Rumpus Mobile (plated)
90' XR100R Goon Mobile (plated)
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robin1731
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Re: Meet Valerie; 1976 GL1000 Custom Transformation

#62

Post by robin1731 »

I think it's time for another/fresh set of eyes to look at it. Sometimes a person gets too lost trying to find a problem. Then someone else looks at it and many times the problem is right in front of them. It happens.

.
1976 Goldwing Super Sport
1985 Honda Elite
1976 KZ900 Dragbike
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Taylorious
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Re: Meet Valerie; 1976 GL1000 Custom Transformation

#63

Post by Taylorious »

robin1731 wrote:I think it's time for another/fresh set of eyes to look at it.
I hear you. BUT. I feel like I'm getting closer!

I've isolated it to the "Turn/Stop/Horn" circuit, and will have a 2nd video to this effect later tonight.

That said; I've a Dynatek S ignition, using the White/Green Wire as the power source... could it be the Dynatek?
WITNESS ME :flamer

If the only tool you have is a HAMMER, everything begins to look like a nail

Santa Cruzian by Way-Of-Oakland.

76' GL1000 "gonna-be-something-special" build
04' KLX300R Rumpus Mobile (plated)
90' XR100R Goon Mobile (plated)
Taylorious
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Re: Meet Valerie; 1976 GL1000 Custom Transformation

#64

Post by Taylorious »

MORE INFO:

Why would giggling the 15A fuse on the fuse box make the engine turn over?

Because
That's
What
It
Did.

...with the starter solenoid-to-starter lead disconnected and the Ignition, Killswitch, and RLU bypassed.
WITNESS ME :flamer

If the only tool you have is a HAMMER, everything begins to look like a nail

Santa Cruzian by Way-Of-Oakland.

76' GL1000 "gonna-be-something-special" build
04' KLX300R Rumpus Mobile (plated)
90' XR100R Goon Mobile (plated)
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ericheath
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Re: Meet Valerie; 1976 GL1000 Custom Transformation

#65

Post by ericheath »

Sounds like the start switch button or solenoid is stuck on, this may have cooked the fuse block. Suggest pulling the fuse box and looking at the back for signs or corrosion or melting. Disconnect the start button's power and see if the solenoid has power to both sides of the solenoid's big terminals. If it does, it's stuck in the on position. On the fifteen amp fuse, try a different one. I've had lots look perfect but lose their connections inside the glass but under the metal caps on the end. Sometimes the caps just swivel and work intermittently.
Whatever I suggest here should be given ample time for a moderator to delicately correct. I apologize in advance.
77 WING, 1200 engine with 77 heads, cams, gl1100 foot pegs, Magna V65 front end, 764A carbs, [-gone Suzuki M109 monoshock--, replaced with gl1100 shocks] gl 1200 swing arm, gl1500 final drive, wheel and rear brakes Valkyrie seat, Meanstreak tank, Sportster pipes, Power Arc ignition off crank.
77 Wing. black
83 Wing, in pieces
"Continuing education is important even if the subject matter is fairly useless (as in this case)."---Greg Foresi
Taylorious
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Re: Meet Valerie; 1976 GL1000 Custom Transformation

#66

Post by Taylorious »

ericheath wrote:Sounds like the start switch button or solenoid is stuck on, this may have cooked the fuse block.
Thanks again for continuing along with me, man.

My question: Would this (a cooked fuse block) explain how the starter could crank without the positive lead from the solenoid connected?
WITNESS ME :flamer

If the only tool you have is a HAMMER, everything begins to look like a nail

Santa Cruzian by Way-Of-Oakland.

76' GL1000 "gonna-be-something-special" build
04' KLX300R Rumpus Mobile (plated)
90' XR100R Goon Mobile (plated)
Taylorious
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Re: Meet Valerie; 1976 GL1000 Custom Transformation

#67

Post by Taylorious »

ericheath wrote:Disconnect the start button's power and see if the solenoid has power to both sides of the solenoid's big terminals. If it does, it's stuck in the on position.
Excellent suggestion!

Just to clarify; I did check the solenoid before by DMM'ing the posts when starter pressed. Made 12.5+v on the 'in' side, and 0v on the other.. then clicked the starter button and the classic *click* sound fired, and the voltage jumped from 0v to 12.5+ on the other post. Would this determine the same result as what you're suggesting?

If not, I should disconnect the Yellow/Red stripe wire, and test solenoid continuity again with it in place, yea?
WITNESS ME :flamer

If the only tool you have is a HAMMER, everything begins to look like a nail

Santa Cruzian by Way-Of-Oakland.

76' GL1000 "gonna-be-something-special" build
04' KLX300R Rumpus Mobile (plated)
90' XR100R Goon Mobile (plated)
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ericheath
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Re: Meet Valerie; 1976 GL1000 Custom Transformation

#68

Post by ericheath »

The big heavy gauge lead or the small leads? If your solenoid is stuck in the engaged position, it will crank as soon as the battery is hooked up. But if you had 12.5v in and zero out, it must be releasing as it should.

Don't forget my disclaimer of thoroughly understanding electrical systems.

If you get 12.5 out and your starter doesn't do as advertised, it would seem to be between the solenoid and the starter. That could be the positive cable, the negative cable, the ground behind the triangular engine hanger which is known to get dissimilar metal corrosion. I forget, have you checked that?
Whatever I suggest here should be given ample time for a moderator to delicately correct. I apologize in advance.
77 WING, 1200 engine with 77 heads, cams, gl1100 foot pegs, Magna V65 front end, 764A carbs, [-gone Suzuki M109 monoshock--, replaced with gl1100 shocks] gl 1200 swing arm, gl1500 final drive, wheel and rear brakes Valkyrie seat, Meanstreak tank, Sportster pipes, Power Arc ignition off crank.
77 Wing. black
83 Wing, in pieces
"Continuing education is important even if the subject matter is fairly useless (as in this case)."---Greg Foresi
Taylorious
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Re: Meet Valerie; 1976 GL1000 Custom Transformation

#69

Post by Taylorious »

ericheath wrote:The big heavy gauge lead or the small leads? If your solenoid is stuck in the engaged position, it will crank as soon as the battery is hooked up. But if you had 12.5v in and zero out, it must be releasing as it should.
I tested using the heavy 8-10 AWG wires / poles on the solenoid. Granted, all 4 wires were still connected (e.g. [+] / [-] leads, and the Yellow/Red stripe + Green/Red stripe, and it allowed me to use the starter button to test the poles. It the solenoidseems to be working as it should... according to my testing methods anyhow.
ericheath wrote: Don't forget my disclaimer of thoroughly understanding electrical systems.
Noted. But, your help is valuable! We're BOTH learning here!
ericheath wrote: If you get 12.5 out and your starter doesn't do as advertised, it would seem to be between the solenoid and the starter. That could be the positive cable, the negative cable, the ground behind the triangular engine hanger which is known to get dissimilar metal corrosion. I forget, have you checked that?
To date, I've checked the following with regards to the above;
1) The voltage at the end of the positive lead from solenoid to starter (12.5+ when solenoid activated and clicks)
2) The starter by itself, disconnected from the engine and sitting on the floor of my garage (it spun, perfectly, w/ jumpers)
3) The cleanliness of the 8-10AWG wires (both + and -) at battery and ground areas. I cleaned any/all of the minor funk I saw, and then reconnected.
4) Condition of each of these cables. (all look fine, have no shorts/ground-outs)

...still stumped. I think the fusebox/grounds/meltage-damage is next on the 'to-check' list, I suppose.
WITNESS ME :flamer

If the only tool you have is a HAMMER, everything begins to look like a nail

Santa Cruzian by Way-Of-Oakland.

76' GL1000 "gonna-be-something-special" build
04' KLX300R Rumpus Mobile (plated)
90' XR100R Goon Mobile (plated)
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ericheath
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Re: Meet Valerie; 1976 GL1000 Custom Transformation

#70

Post by ericheath »

Re-reading your phantom starter description, are you sure it was the starter? On my bike with a Dyna, sometimes just turning on the ignition switch can cause the motor to turn a little and mine sounds like it goes backwards. It could be a ghost, but more likely is that one cylinder is at a point ready to fire. Turning the switch on energizes the Dyna and the Hall-Effect magnet is in the right position to fire a weak spark. Since the piston is not moving and the spark is five to ten degrees BTDC it could cause it to fire backwards. Mine is just enough to move a piston a little bit. If fuel is in the waste spark cylinder on the exhaust stroke, it could make a small backfire.
Whatever I suggest here should be given ample time for a moderator to delicately correct. I apologize in advance.
77 WING, 1200 engine with 77 heads, cams, gl1100 foot pegs, Magna V65 front end, 764A carbs, [-gone Suzuki M109 monoshock--, replaced with gl1100 shocks] gl 1200 swing arm, gl1500 final drive, wheel and rear brakes Valkyrie seat, Meanstreak tank, Sportster pipes, Power Arc ignition off crank.
77 Wing. black
83 Wing, in pieces
"Continuing education is important even if the subject matter is fairly useless (as in this case)."---Greg Foresi
Taylorious
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Re: Meet Valerie; 1976 GL1000 Custom Transformation

#71

Post by Taylorious »

Taylorious wrote:
ericheath wrote:Sounds like the start switch button or solenoid is stuck on, this may have cooked the fuse block.
Thanks again for continuing along with me, man.

My question: Would this (a cooked fuse block) explain how the starter could crank without the positive lead from the solenoid connected?
I want to be crystal-clear that, somehow, after the bike has NO [+] CONNECTION TO THE STARTER MOTOR from BATTERY it tried to turn over as I wiggled the 15A "STOP/TURN/HORN" fuse.

Granted; I know about how single cylinder bikes I've worked on like T.D.C. as their 'starting point', and these 'attempts to turn over' were after 2-10 attempts to kickstart the engine. Maybe the engine 'turns to T.D.C?' on it's own like a compression release? I dk... lookin' for an electrical wizard to explain this one...
WITNESS ME :flamer

If the only tool you have is a HAMMER, everything begins to look like a nail

Santa Cruzian by Way-Of-Oakland.

76' GL1000 "gonna-be-something-special" build
04' KLX300R Rumpus Mobile (plated)
90' XR100R Goon Mobile (plated)
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ericheath
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Re: Meet Valerie; 1976 GL1000 Custom Transformation

#72

Post by ericheath »

If your Dyna is wired as Dyna recommends, it is through the turn signal. So if it turned when you wiggled that, you energized the Dyna. That could be the fuse, the fuse box, the fuse box ground. Could be your problem, but might be a separate issue.

If a solenoid's contact pieces get really pitted on its internal connectors, it can create resistance where the volts are still 12.5 in and out because the is some contact, but not enough to carry enough amperage for the starter.

Have you tried shorting the terminals around the solenoid? I think you need a pair of pliers to do it on the Honda solenoid and probably pull it out of its spot to access the terminals so you don't inadvertently touch the frame.

If that cranks it over, I would guess your solenoid is bad. Some guys can pull them apart and clean the connections up and they work again.
Whatever I suggest here should be given ample time for a moderator to delicately correct. I apologize in advance.
77 WING, 1200 engine with 77 heads, cams, gl1100 foot pegs, Magna V65 front end, 764A carbs, [-gone Suzuki M109 monoshock--, replaced with gl1100 shocks] gl 1200 swing arm, gl1500 final drive, wheel and rear brakes Valkyrie seat, Meanstreak tank, Sportster pipes, Power Arc ignition off crank.
77 Wing. black
83 Wing, in pieces
"Continuing education is important even if the subject matter is fairly useless (as in this case)."---Greg Foresi
Taylorious
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Re: Meet Valerie; 1976 GL1000 Custom Transformation

#73

Post by Taylorious »

ericheath wrote:If your Dyna is wired as Dyna recommends, it is through the turn signal. So if it turned when you wiggled that, you energized the Dyna. That could be the fuse, the fuse box, the fuse box ground. Could be your problem, but might be a separate issue.
The Dyna's wired as it should be, and it's still making full 12.5v+ at the union to the turn signal wires under the left-side faux tank.
I'll start 'next steps' by looking into the fusebox. Thanks man.
ericheath wrote: Have you tried shorting the terminals around the solenoid? I think you need a pair of pliers to do it on the Honda solenoid and probably pull it out of its spot to access the terminals so you don't inadvertently touch the frame.
If that cranks it over, I would guess your solenoid is bad. Some guys can pull them apart and clean the connections up and they work again.
I have 'bridged' the solenoid's [+] and [-] terminals with a big ol' screwdriver, and sparks flew, and all that goodness... and the voltage jumped across the screwdriver and effectively 'bypassed' the solenoid;
...but the engine didn't even turn. Nothin'.
...this lead me, at first, to assume the problem was the STARTER MOTOR, and so I bought an eBay 'guaranteed' replacement, but after pulling mine out, it works fine, and after installing the eBay starter, it had a terrible 'whirring' sound even when I kick-started it. Here's a video with the same sound; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sw79gPkp4g
WITNESS ME :flamer

If the only tool you have is a HAMMER, everything begins to look like a nail

Santa Cruzian by Way-Of-Oakland.

76' GL1000 "gonna-be-something-special" build
04' KLX300R Rumpus Mobile (plated)
90' XR100R Goon Mobile (plated)
Taylorious
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Re: Meet Valerie; 1976 GL1000 Custom Transformation

#74

Post by Taylorious »

Another Youtube Video of the problem IN ACTION:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9RF_HCxbSo
WITNESS ME :flamer

If the only tool you have is a HAMMER, everything begins to look like a nail

Santa Cruzian by Way-Of-Oakland.

76' GL1000 "gonna-be-something-special" build
04' KLX300R Rumpus Mobile (plated)
90' XR100R Goon Mobile (plated)
User avatar
ericheath
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Re: Meet Valerie; 1976 GL1000 Custom Transformation

#75

Post by ericheath »

First video: That howling sound at the end of cranking is common on mine after sitting a while or when it's cold.

The draw down on the second video is weird. I notice the horn is on that circuit. Any chance it's sucking down the juice?
Whatever I suggest here should be given ample time for a moderator to delicately correct. I apologize in advance.
77 WING, 1200 engine with 77 heads, cams, gl1100 foot pegs, Magna V65 front end, 764A carbs, [-gone Suzuki M109 monoshock--, replaced with gl1100 shocks] gl 1200 swing arm, gl1500 final drive, wheel and rear brakes Valkyrie seat, Meanstreak tank, Sportster pipes, Power Arc ignition off crank.
77 Wing. black
83 Wing, in pieces
"Continuing education is important even if the subject matter is fairly useless (as in this case)."---Greg Foresi
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