here's an interesting article about our bikes grandad.

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Explorer
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here's an interesting article about our bikes grandad.

#1

Post by Explorer »

https://www.yahoo.com/news/nazi-motorcy ... 00163.html

I was particularly intrigued by the 2 rear wheel drive mode. How actually knowledgeable the writer of the article is? I don't know.
Last edited by Explorer on Sat Jun 13, 2020 2:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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gltriker
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Re: here's an interesting article about our bikes grandad.

#2

Post by gltriker »

Bob will fill you in.
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Explorer
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Re: here's an interesting article about our bikes grandad.

#3

Post by Explorer »

I figured he might.
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Sidecar Bob
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Re: here's an interesting article about our bikes grandad.

#4

Post by Sidecar Bob »

That is substantially correct except that saying that the current Urals are based on the pre-war BMWs is like saying that a 2020 CB1000 is based on the '69 CB750. To start with, the original model (the Soviets didn't reverse engineer them but were given plans by the Germans) had a side valve engine but the Soviets redesigned it with overhead valves in the early '60s (at which point they sold the side valve design to China so the Chang Jiang wasn't a copy). They also changed from the original telescopic forks to leading links and there have been several fuel tank designs over the years. The frames are substantially different too and the list of improvements since the head office moved to the US is longer than I'd care to attempt to remember.

Also, his timeline is a bit off. Soon after the US joined the already in progress WWII, trials were held to decide if they would continue using Harley sidecar outfits or buy the newly developed Jeep. In spite of the sidecar outfit having to tow the Jeep home after a drivetrain failure it was decided to go with the Jeep because it took less skill to operate.
All of the bikes the Allies had were chain drive and in some theatres (especially in the desert) the shaft drive BMWs and Zundapps kept going long after the chains & sprockets of the Allied bikes had been worn to useless. It was the Yanks that actually reverse engineered the R71 in an attempt to match the shaft drive's durability. They gave a captured R71 each to Harley and Indian. Indian used an existing engine design but Harley copied it exactly with the exception of SAE fasteners instead of metric. THey actually produced 1000 of them and they were ready to ship overseas when the war ended. Because they infringed on BMW's patents they were all supposed to be destroyed but a small number have survived.

There may be something to your comment about it being "our bikes grandad". Note that this is hearsay only: Someone I met at a rally decades ago told me that a book he had told the story of a Honda sending a rep to the US to find out what kind of bikes Americans wanted. In the course of visiting a bunch of bike rallies he came across a BMW that someone had installed a VW flat 4 engine in (the engine/transmission interface of BMW and VW engines was the same up to some time in the '60s). The story goes that he was very excited about it, bought the bike to take back to Japan and a few years later the first GL1000 rolled off the line.
This sounds plausible, considering that the architecture of the GL1000 engine and the VW engine are similar and that the GL's driveshaft is on the right like the BMW & its derivatives and unlike all of the chain drive designs that had been converted to use shafts on the left side.
But the first 'Wing prototypes had 6 cylinders so maybe not....
Mr. Honda ('83 GL1100/Dnepr) summer How a motorcycle evolves thread
The Famous Eccles ('84 CX650EI/VeloUral) winter Never Ending Build (CX500forum)
Click: Colour schematics for all GL1000 & GL1100 and GL1200 standard models plus instructions on how to download the full size version
"A guy with two sidecars can't be all bad." - Cookie
Another guy with two sidecars..... Hmmmm... must be something to that....
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Re: here's an interesting article about our bikes grandad.

#5

Post by Gowing »

Interesting story and comments bob. I can believe the hearsay. When I was with Chrysler for a few years.
And the neon came out. There were pictures floating around of a neon torn down into thousands of components (pieces) on tables in a large building with Japanese looking at every piece.
I imagine that stuff still goes on today. Once the competition gets their hands on your product, they immediately tear it apart to learn.
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Re: here's an interesting article about our bikes grandad.

#6

Post by rjdoles »

Gowing wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:03 pm Interesting story and comments bob. I can believe the hearsay. When I was with Chrysler for a few years.
And the neon came out. There were pictures floating around of a neon torn down into thousands of components (pieces) on tables in a large building with Japanese looking at every piece.
I imagine that stuff still goes on today. Once the competition gets their hands on your product, they immediately tear it apart to learn.
I attended an Allen Bradley machine tool control class in Cleveland along with some folks from Caterpillar.

After class we we swapping stories and FWIW, they said that a Japanese company took a used one of their dozers back to disassemble, measure and duplicate it. One of the previous owners added some sort of instrument to the dash. A 3" hole had been cut into the dash using a holesaw. The last owner had since removed whatever it was and the hole in the dash was covered with a plate and 4 screws. Their knockoff version of the dozer came with that same opening complete with a blank plate and 4 screws. Had they bought a new dozer, it would not have had that alteration. They never did have an explanation for the hole.
Started with an Allstate stooter made by Cushman and then a series of Honda motorcycles. 305 SuperHawk, CB750, VT600DC, VT750CD and then 4 years ago I left motorcycles for scooters with an Elite 125, Reflex 250 and Silverwing 600. Most recent is a barn find 77 GL1000 that I plan to resurect.
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Lucien Harpress
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Re: here's an interesting article about our bikes grandad.

#7

Post by Lucien Harpress »

If you want a master's class in product copying, check out the Boeing B-29 and the Tupolev Tu-4. A neat bit of history and a heck of a story.
1997 Valkyrie- Light Cutomization, but Too Busy Riding
1980 KZ1300- Bike's Haunted
1976 GL1000 (Yellow)- It Runs (Poorly) and Doesn't Leak (Mostly)
1974 Velosolex 3800- Better Than Walking
1972 CB750- Broke the Chain And Ate the Motor
1969 CT90- The Most Fun You Can Have on 90ccs.
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Sidecar Bob
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Re: here's an interesting article about our bikes grandad.

#8

Post by Sidecar Bob »

BTW: The Chang Jiang motorcycle wasn't reverse engineered from the BMW either. What I heard is that when the Soviets redesigned the Ural & Dnepr in the early '60s they sold the dies for the old flathead bikes to China.
And apparently the Chinese didn't like re-lacing wheels when their low quality spokes broke so they came up with a version of the Comstar
chang comstar.jpg
chang comstar.jpg (143.42 KiB) Viewed 478 times
Mr. Honda ('83 GL1100/Dnepr) summer How a motorcycle evolves thread
The Famous Eccles ('84 CX650EI/VeloUral) winter Never Ending Build (CX500forum)
Click: Colour schematics for all GL1000 & GL1100 and GL1200 standard models plus instructions on how to download the full size version
"A guy with two sidecars can't be all bad." - Cookie
Another guy with two sidecars..... Hmmmm... must be something to that....
Don R
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Re: here's an interesting article about our bikes grandad.

#9

Post by Don R »

When my brother was in Japan in the late 50's he saw many motorcycles that were similar to other designs. A Lilac comes to mind, I forget if it was like a bmw or moto guzzi but clearly a smaller version of an existing bike. There were also Kawasaki V twins that looked like Harleys.
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Sidecar Bob
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Re: here's an interesting article about our bikes grandad.

#10

Post by Sidecar Bob »

The Marusho Lilac was an across the frame V twin shaft drive motorcycle that was introduced in 1950. 4 years later the German Victoria company started making their Bergmaster with similar configuration. Moto Guzzi didn't introduce theirs until nearly a decade later (until then they were known for horizontal singles).

The earliest bike of that configuration I've been able to find was the Indian 841. The bikes allies had were eating up their chains In the African campaign of WWII while the shaft drive BMWs and Zundapps kept going so Harley and Indian were given captured BMW sidecar outfits and charged with making something as reliable. Harley reverse engineered theirs and copied it except for using SAE fasteners and a few off the shelf items like fenders. Indian mated had their own shaft drive design from the 4 to the V twin from the Chief with mostly existing parts to produce theirs. Something like 1000 of them were built in the early '40s.

BTW: After Marusho closed its doors some of its engineers went to work at Honda and eventually contributed to the design of the CX500 and its family.
Mr. Honda ('83 GL1100/Dnepr) summer How a motorcycle evolves thread
The Famous Eccles ('84 CX650EI/VeloUral) winter Never Ending Build (CX500forum)
Click: Colour schematics for all GL1000 & GL1100 and GL1200 standard models plus instructions on how to download the full size version
"A guy with two sidecars can't be all bad." - Cookie
Another guy with two sidecars..... Hmmmm... must be something to that....
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Re: here's an interesting article about our bikes grandad.

#11

Post by pidjones »

There are two of the Harley shaft drive models at the Wheels Through Time museum in Maggie Valley, NC. Both operational.
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Sidecar Bob
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Re: here's an interesting article about our bikes grandad.

#12

Post by Sidecar Bob »

Apparently the first lot of XAs were ready to be shipped overseas when the war ended. Because the US was no longer at war with Germany and they infringed on BMW's patents they were supposed to all be destroyed.
Apparently a handful survived.
Mr. Honda ('83 GL1100/Dnepr) summer How a motorcycle evolves thread
The Famous Eccles ('84 CX650EI/VeloUral) winter Never Ending Build (CX500forum)
Click: Colour schematics for all GL1000 & GL1100 and GL1200 standard models plus instructions on how to download the full size version
"A guy with two sidecars can't be all bad." - Cookie
Another guy with two sidecars..... Hmmmm... must be something to that....
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Lucien Harpress
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Re: here's an interesting article about our bikes grandad.

#13

Post by Lucien Harpress »

I'm honestly surprised how many XA's I've seen in person. There's one at the Harley Museum in Milwaukee (expected) along with I think the only surviving XS- think an XA, but with a two-wheel drive sidecar. There was also a working XS at a local bike show a couple of years ago- I hung around for a second to hear it run. A couple years before that one was up for sale at a motorcycle auction down in Ohio that I went to check out on a whim.

I didn't stick around to see how much it went for, but it was far outside my means at the time.
1997 Valkyrie- Light Cutomization, but Too Busy Riding
1980 KZ1300- Bike's Haunted
1976 GL1000 (Yellow)- It Runs (Poorly) and Doesn't Leak (Mostly)
1974 Velosolex 3800- Better Than Walking
1972 CB750- Broke the Chain And Ate the Motor
1969 CT90- The Most Fun You Can Have on 90ccs.
1965 CA77 Dream- Needs a Full Teardown, but Complete

All advice I give is only valid until an expert corrects me.
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