here's an interesting article about our bikes grandad.
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- Titanium Member
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here's an interesting article about our bikes grandad.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/nazi-motorcy ... 00163.html
I was particularly intrigued by the 2 rear wheel drive mode. How actually knowledgeable the writer of the article is? I don't know.
I was particularly intrigued by the 2 rear wheel drive mode. How actually knowledgeable the writer of the article is? I don't know.
Last edited by Explorer on Sat Jun 13, 2020 2:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
- gltriker
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Re: here's an interesting article about our bikes grandad.
Bob will fill you in.
Cliff (74yrs )
Keep your eyes and ears open and you'll learn something new, everyday.
New users please visit our "Shop Talk" for common tips and help: <---jdvorchak
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RE: a thorough fuel tank cleaning
"And your carbs will thank you. They no longer live down stream from a sewage plant." -gregforesi
"Can't see the paint when your looking thru the handlebars..........." -Oldewing
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Cliff
'75 GL1000 home built trike; http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=39996
October,2017 BOTM https://nakedgoldwingsclub.com/forum/page/Welcome
previous rides:
1953 H-D Servi-car, naked, 1969-1978 (serial#53G1559 committed to memory!)
1980 CB900 Custom (triked) 1997-2003 .... R.I.P.
Keep your eyes and ears open and you'll learn something new, everyday.
New users please visit our "Shop Talk" for common tips and help: <---jdvorchak
http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/page/ST
^^^^^^^click up here^^^^^
RE: a thorough fuel tank cleaning
"And your carbs will thank you. They no longer live down stream from a sewage plant." -gregforesi
"Can't see the paint when your looking thru the handlebars..........." -Oldewing
"I'd rather Ride than Shine" -RAT Me Too!!
Cliff
'75 GL1000 home built trike; http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=39996
October,2017 BOTM https://nakedgoldwingsclub.com/forum/page/Welcome
previous rides:
1953 H-D Servi-car, naked, 1969-1978 (serial#53G1559 committed to memory!)
1980 CB900 Custom (triked) 1997-2003 .... R.I.P.
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Re: here's an interesting article about our bikes grandad.
I figured he might.
- Sidecar Bob
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Re: here's an interesting article about our bikes grandad.
That is substantially correct except that saying that the current Urals are based on the pre-war BMWs is like saying that a 2020 CB1000 is based on the '69 CB750. To start with, the original model (the Soviets didn't reverse engineer them but were given plans by the Germans) had a side valve engine but the Soviets redesigned it with overhead valves in the early '60s (at which point they sold the side valve design to China so the Chang Jiang wasn't a copy). They also changed from the original telescopic forks to leading links and there have been several fuel tank designs over the years. The frames are substantially different too and the list of improvements since the head office moved to the US is longer than I'd care to attempt to remember.
Also, his timeline is a bit off. Soon after the US joined the already in progress WWII, trials were held to decide if they would continue using Harley sidecar outfits or buy the newly developed Jeep. In spite of the sidecar outfit having to tow the Jeep home after a drivetrain failure it was decided to go with the Jeep because it took less skill to operate.
All of the bikes the Allies had were chain drive and in some theatres (especially in the desert) the shaft drive BMWs and Zundapps kept going long after the chains & sprockets of the Allied bikes had been worn to useless. It was the Yanks that actually reverse engineered the R71 in an attempt to match the shaft drive's durability. They gave a captured R71 each to Harley and Indian. Indian used an existing engine design but Harley copied it exactly with the exception of SAE fasteners instead of metric. THey actually produced 1000 of them and they were ready to ship overseas when the war ended. Because they infringed on BMW's patents they were all supposed to be destroyed but a small number have survived.
There may be something to your comment about it being "our bikes grandad". Note that this is hearsay only: Someone I met at a rally decades ago told me that a book he had told the story of a Honda sending a rep to the US to find out what kind of bikes Americans wanted. In the course of visiting a bunch of bike rallies he came across a BMW that someone had installed a VW flat 4 engine in (the engine/transmission interface of BMW and VW engines was the same up to some time in the '60s). The story goes that he was very excited about it, bought the bike to take back to Japan and a few years later the first GL1000 rolled off the line.
This sounds plausible, considering that the architecture of the GL1000 engine and the VW engine are similar and that the GL's driveshaft is on the right like the BMW & its derivatives and unlike all of the chain drive designs that had been converted to use shafts on the left side.
But the first 'Wing prototypes had 6 cylinders so maybe not....
Also, his timeline is a bit off. Soon after the US joined the already in progress WWII, trials were held to decide if they would continue using Harley sidecar outfits or buy the newly developed Jeep. In spite of the sidecar outfit having to tow the Jeep home after a drivetrain failure it was decided to go with the Jeep because it took less skill to operate.
All of the bikes the Allies had were chain drive and in some theatres (especially in the desert) the shaft drive BMWs and Zundapps kept going long after the chains & sprockets of the Allied bikes had been worn to useless. It was the Yanks that actually reverse engineered the R71 in an attempt to match the shaft drive's durability. They gave a captured R71 each to Harley and Indian. Indian used an existing engine design but Harley copied it exactly with the exception of SAE fasteners instead of metric. THey actually produced 1000 of them and they were ready to ship overseas when the war ended. Because they infringed on BMW's patents they were all supposed to be destroyed but a small number have survived.
There may be something to your comment about it being "our bikes grandad". Note that this is hearsay only: Someone I met at a rally decades ago told me that a book he had told the story of a Honda sending a rep to the US to find out what kind of bikes Americans wanted. In the course of visiting a bunch of bike rallies he came across a BMW that someone had installed a VW flat 4 engine in (the engine/transmission interface of BMW and VW engines was the same up to some time in the '60s). The story goes that he was very excited about it, bought the bike to take back to Japan and a few years later the first GL1000 rolled off the line.
This sounds plausible, considering that the architecture of the GL1000 engine and the VW engine are similar and that the GL's driveshaft is on the right like the BMW & its derivatives and unlike all of the chain drive designs that had been converted to use shafts on the left side.
But the first 'Wing prototypes had 6 cylinders so maybe not....
Mr. Honda ('83 GL1100/Dnepr) summer How a motorcycle evolves thread
The Famous Eccles ('84 CX650EI/VeloUral) winter Never Ending Build (CX500forum)
Click: Colour schematics for all GL1000 & GL1100 and GL1200 standard models plus instructions on how to download the full size version
"A guy with two sidecars can't be all bad." - Cookie
Another guy with two sidecars..... Hmmmm... must be something to that....
The Famous Eccles ('84 CX650EI/VeloUral) winter Never Ending Build (CX500forum)
Click: Colour schematics for all GL1000 & GL1100 and GL1200 standard models plus instructions on how to download the full size version
"A guy with two sidecars can't be all bad." - Cookie
Another guy with two sidecars..... Hmmmm... must be something to that....
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- True Blue Steel Biker
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Re: here's an interesting article about our bikes grandad.
Interesting story and comments bob. I can believe the hearsay. When I was with Chrysler for a few years.
And the neon came out. There were pictures floating around of a neon torn down into thousands of components (pieces) on tables in a large building with Japanese looking at every piece.
I imagine that stuff still goes on today. Once the competition gets their hands on your product, they immediately tear it apart to learn.
And the neon came out. There were pictures floating around of a neon torn down into thousands of components (pieces) on tables in a large building with Japanese looking at every piece.
I imagine that stuff still goes on today. Once the competition gets their hands on your product, they immediately tear it apart to learn.
Dave
1975 GL 1000
1980 XS650
1981 ct110
1972 F7 KAW 175
2000 moby blaze 40cc
Chihuahua (Ellie)
Chihuahua #2(Blaze)
1975 GL 1000
1980 XS650
1981 ct110
1972 F7 KAW 175
2000 moby blaze 40cc
Chihuahua (Ellie)
Chihuahua #2(Blaze)
- rjdoles
- Cast Iron Member
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- Location: Columbus, Oh
Re: here's an interesting article about our bikes grandad.
I attended an Allen Bradley machine tool control class in Cleveland along with some folks from Caterpillar.Gowing wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:03 pm Interesting story and comments bob. I can believe the hearsay. When I was with Chrysler for a few years.
And the neon came out. There were pictures floating around of a neon torn down into thousands of components (pieces) on tables in a large building with Japanese looking at every piece.
I imagine that stuff still goes on today. Once the competition gets their hands on your product, they immediately tear it apart to learn.
After class we we swapping stories and FWIW, they said that a Japanese company took a used one of their dozers back to disassemble, measure and duplicate it. One of the previous owners added some sort of instrument to the dash. A 3" hole had been cut into the dash using a holesaw. The last owner had since removed whatever it was and the hole in the dash was covered with a plate and 4 screws. Their knockoff version of the dozer came with that same opening complete with a blank plate and 4 screws. Had they bought a new dozer, it would not have had that alteration. They never did have an explanation for the hole.
Started with an Allstate stooter made by Cushman and then a series of Honda motorcycles. 305 SuperHawk, CB750, VT600DC, VT750CD and then 4 years ago I left motorcycles for scooters with an Elite 125, Reflex 250 and Silverwing 600. Most recent is a barn find 77 GL1000 that I plan to resurect.
- Lucien Harpress
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Re: here's an interesting article about our bikes grandad.
If you want a master's class in product copying, check out the Boeing B-29 and the Tupolev Tu-4. A neat bit of history and a heck of a story.
1997 Valkyrie- Light Cutomization, but Too Busy Riding
1980 KZ1300- Bike's Haunted
1976 GL1000 (Yellow)- It Runs (Poorly) and Doesn't Leak (Mostly)
1974 Velosolex 3800- Better Than Walking
1972 CB750- Broke the Chain And Ate the Motor
1969 CT90- The Most Fun You Can Have on 90ccs.
1965 CA77 Dream- Needs a Full Teardown, but Complete
All advice I give is only valid until an expert corrects me.
1980 KZ1300- Bike's Haunted
1976 GL1000 (Yellow)- It Runs (Poorly) and Doesn't Leak (Mostly)
1974 Velosolex 3800- Better Than Walking
1972 CB750- Broke the Chain And Ate the Motor
1969 CT90- The Most Fun You Can Have on 90ccs.
1965 CA77 Dream- Needs a Full Teardown, but Complete
All advice I give is only valid until an expert corrects me.
- Sidecar Bob
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- Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2006 10:14 pm
- Location: Kawartha Lakes, Ontario
Re: here's an interesting article about our bikes grandad.
BTW: The Chang Jiang motorcycle wasn't reverse engineered from the BMW either. What I heard is that when the Soviets redesigned the Ural & Dnepr in the early '60s they sold the dies for the old flathead bikes to China.
And apparently the Chinese didn't like re-lacing wheels when their low quality spokes broke so they came up with a version of the Comstar
And apparently the Chinese didn't like re-lacing wheels when their low quality spokes broke so they came up with a version of the Comstar
Mr. Honda ('83 GL1100/Dnepr) summer How a motorcycle evolves thread
The Famous Eccles ('84 CX650EI/VeloUral) winter Never Ending Build (CX500forum)
Click: Colour schematics for all GL1000 & GL1100 and GL1200 standard models plus instructions on how to download the full size version
"A guy with two sidecars can't be all bad." - Cookie
Another guy with two sidecars..... Hmmmm... must be something to that....
The Famous Eccles ('84 CX650EI/VeloUral) winter Never Ending Build (CX500forum)
Click: Colour schematics for all GL1000 & GL1100 and GL1200 standard models plus instructions on how to download the full size version
"A guy with two sidecars can't be all bad." - Cookie
Another guy with two sidecars..... Hmmmm... must be something to that....
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Re: here's an interesting article about our bikes grandad.
When my brother was in Japan in the late 50's he saw many motorcycles that were similar to other designs. A Lilac comes to mind, I forget if it was like a bmw or moto guzzi but clearly a smaller version of an existing bike. There were also Kawasaki V twins that looked like Harleys.
78 GL 1000, 70 CB750 sandcast, 70 CB836 hot rod, 1124cc 750 dragbike resto project.
You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.
You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.
- Sidecar Bob
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Re: here's an interesting article about our bikes grandad.
The Marusho Lilac was an across the frame V twin shaft drive motorcycle that was introduced in 1950. 4 years later the German Victoria company started making their Bergmaster with similar configuration. Moto Guzzi didn't introduce theirs until nearly a decade later (until then they were known for horizontal singles).
The earliest bike of that configuration I've been able to find was the Indian 841. The bikes allies had were eating up their chains In the African campaign of WWII while the shaft drive BMWs and Zundapps kept going so Harley and Indian were given captured BMW sidecar outfits and charged with making something as reliable. Harley reverse engineered theirs and copied it except for using SAE fasteners and a few off the shelf items like fenders. Indian mated had their own shaft drive design from the 4 to the V twin from the Chief with mostly existing parts to produce theirs. Something like 1000 of them were built in the early '40s.
BTW: After Marusho closed its doors some of its engineers went to work at Honda and eventually contributed to the design of the CX500 and its family.
The earliest bike of that configuration I've been able to find was the Indian 841. The bikes allies had were eating up their chains In the African campaign of WWII while the shaft drive BMWs and Zundapps kept going so Harley and Indian were given captured BMW sidecar outfits and charged with making something as reliable. Harley reverse engineered theirs and copied it except for using SAE fasteners and a few off the shelf items like fenders. Indian mated had their own shaft drive design from the 4 to the V twin from the Chief with mostly existing parts to produce theirs. Something like 1000 of them were built in the early '40s.
BTW: After Marusho closed its doors some of its engineers went to work at Honda and eventually contributed to the design of the CX500 and its family.
Mr. Honda ('83 GL1100/Dnepr) summer How a motorcycle evolves thread
The Famous Eccles ('84 CX650EI/VeloUral) winter Never Ending Build (CX500forum)
Click: Colour schematics for all GL1000 & GL1100 and GL1200 standard models plus instructions on how to download the full size version
"A guy with two sidecars can't be all bad." - Cookie
Another guy with two sidecars..... Hmmmm... must be something to that....
The Famous Eccles ('84 CX650EI/VeloUral) winter Never Ending Build (CX500forum)
Click: Colour schematics for all GL1000 & GL1100 and GL1200 standard models plus instructions on how to download the full size version
"A guy with two sidecars can't be all bad." - Cookie
Another guy with two sidecars..... Hmmmm... must be something to that....
- pidjones
- SUPER BIKER!!!!
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Re: here's an interesting article about our bikes grandad.
There are two of the Harley shaft drive models at the Wheels Through Time museum in Maggie Valley, NC. Both operational.
"Love 'em all.... let God sort 'em out!"
Ex 2006 GL1800 - the Black Pearl SOLD! to make room for:
2021 Can-Am Spyder RT Limited Dark Chalk Metallic
1975 Red GL1000 project - ex Pistol Pete project
1972 Triumph T150V Trident rescue - finished and FOR SALE!
1976 Yamaha RD400c
1978 GL1000 with '75 engine - the Hunley
Ex 1978 GL1000
Ex 1979 GL1000
Ex '79 CB750F rat bike
Ex '86 SEi
Ex '77 GL1000
Ex '76 RD400
Ex '72 Penton 125 set up for flat track
Ex '73 RD250
Ex '68 TR6C - chopped
Ex 2006 GL1800 - the Black Pearl SOLD! to make room for:
2021 Can-Am Spyder RT Limited Dark Chalk Metallic
1975 Red GL1000 project - ex Pistol Pete project
1972 Triumph T150V Trident rescue - finished and FOR SALE!
1976 Yamaha RD400c
1978 GL1000 with '75 engine - the Hunley
Ex 1978 GL1000
Ex 1979 GL1000
Ex '79 CB750F rat bike
Ex '86 SEi
Ex '77 GL1000
Ex '76 RD400
Ex '72 Penton 125 set up for flat track
Ex '73 RD250
Ex '68 TR6C - chopped
- Sidecar Bob
- Honored Life Member
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- Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2006 10:14 pm
- Location: Kawartha Lakes, Ontario
Re: here's an interesting article about our bikes grandad.
Apparently the first lot of XAs were ready to be shipped overseas when the war ended. Because the US was no longer at war with Germany and they infringed on BMW's patents they were supposed to all be destroyed.
Apparently a handful survived.
Apparently a handful survived.
Mr. Honda ('83 GL1100/Dnepr) summer How a motorcycle evolves thread
The Famous Eccles ('84 CX650EI/VeloUral) winter Never Ending Build (CX500forum)
Click: Colour schematics for all GL1000 & GL1100 and GL1200 standard models plus instructions on how to download the full size version
"A guy with two sidecars can't be all bad." - Cookie
Another guy with two sidecars..... Hmmmm... must be something to that....
The Famous Eccles ('84 CX650EI/VeloUral) winter Never Ending Build (CX500forum)
Click: Colour schematics for all GL1000 & GL1100 and GL1200 standard models plus instructions on how to download the full size version
"A guy with two sidecars can't be all bad." - Cookie
Another guy with two sidecars..... Hmmmm... must be something to that....
- Lucien Harpress
- Honored Life Member
- Posts: 4077
- Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2011 11:41 am
- Location: Michigan
Re: here's an interesting article about our bikes grandad.
I'm honestly surprised how many XA's I've seen in person. There's one at the Harley Museum in Milwaukee (expected) along with I think the only surviving XS- think an XA, but with a two-wheel drive sidecar. There was also a working XS at a local bike show a couple of years ago- I hung around for a second to hear it run. A couple years before that one was up for sale at a motorcycle auction down in Ohio that I went to check out on a whim.
I didn't stick around to see how much it went for, but it was far outside my means at the time.
I didn't stick around to see how much it went for, but it was far outside my means at the time.
1997 Valkyrie- Light Cutomization, but Too Busy Riding
1980 KZ1300- Bike's Haunted
1976 GL1000 (Yellow)- It Runs (Poorly) and Doesn't Leak (Mostly)
1974 Velosolex 3800- Better Than Walking
1972 CB750- Broke the Chain And Ate the Motor
1969 CT90- The Most Fun You Can Have on 90ccs.
1965 CA77 Dream- Needs a Full Teardown, but Complete
All advice I give is only valid until an expert corrects me.
1980 KZ1300- Bike's Haunted
1976 GL1000 (Yellow)- It Runs (Poorly) and Doesn't Leak (Mostly)
1974 Velosolex 3800- Better Than Walking
1972 CB750- Broke the Chain And Ate the Motor
1969 CT90- The Most Fun You Can Have on 90ccs.
1965 CA77 Dream- Needs a Full Teardown, but Complete
All advice I give is only valid until an expert corrects me.
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