Theoretical question

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Sagebrush
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Re: Theoretical question

#16

Post by Sagebrush »

Does your ride on ride off center stand allow for manual use? If so just put a 3/4" board under the center stand and lift the bike onto it. It will probably take a pretty good clean and jerk to get it started but should be easy enough. I don't know if any of the videos mentioned it but remove or loosen the bottom drain bolt before you take the fork cap off. You'll need some tension on the internals applied the the springs to keep the part that the drain bolt (it does more than just drain the fluid) screws into from turning with the bolt.
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Re: Theoretical question

#17

Post by Whiskerfish »

Yes it does. That is one of the reasons I love it. I can actually sit on the bike and put it on center manually. Having nothing to compare it to it just seems like the pads are a touch narrower than they should be and it is not super stable side to side and both wheels still touch the ground. I just want to have it supported from above for safety.

Yep on the lower bolt, same deal on the 1000's. :-D
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Re: Theoretical question

#18

Post by Sagebrush »

I can actually sit on the bike and put it on center manually. Having nothing to compare it to it just seems like the pads are a touch narrower than they should be and it is not super stable side to side and both wheels still touch the ground.
Interesting, I could change the rear tire while the bike was on the stock center stand on my '02. I could just roll it out the back. You can't do that with your bike even if you had the stock center stand because of the radio amplifier being in the way. I always liked that feature. I could remove the front forks while the bike was on the center stand as well I just had to prop it up a little with a floor jack under the engine to raise the front and lower the rear.
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Re: Theoretical question

#19

Post by Whiskerfish »

Yea it is great operationally but not intended for maintenance.
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todd54219
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Re: Theoretical question

#20

Post by todd54219 »

Just thinking out loud. The spring is obviously all one piece so that when load or force is applied to one end, either end, the spring will compress or absorb the load at the point where the tension is less, meaning where the spring rate is lower, first, regardless of which end is up. As mentioned in earlier posts, unless it is in laboratory testing environment, you will never be able to tell the difference. Seat of the pants testing is not very accurate. If the manufacture recommends installing it in a certain orientation, what can it hurt. It can only hurt the head to think this much on a snowy Sunday morning. :-)

JMHO

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Re: Theoretical question

#21

Post by WingMan71 »

Whiskerfish wrote:... in our front fork application, I can't help but think that the difference would be so negligible that it would be undetectable outside of a testing environment?
I tend to agree.

Primarily, it comes down to Newton's Third Law: "For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction."

Fact is that the fork spring is being compressed from both ends at the same time. If there IS any difference in how the more tightly wound coils absorb the forces of compression, any forces resulting from that compression will act on the entire assembly following Newton's Third Law.

So, if we're only talking about springs, there will be no discernible difference in fork assembly performance regardless of whether the springs are installed tight coils up or tight coils down.

However, there is another variable in this equation... the fork oil and whether having the tightly would coils down (and bathed in the fork oil) or the tightly wound coils up (and not bathed in the fork oil) affects compression or rebound damping. And, if it does, will it make enough of a difference to be noticeable?

Whichever, I've never felt any difference in fork performance one way or the other.

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Re: Theoretical question

#22

Post by wingandaprayer »

I was taught that, theoretically, the heaviest bit of any suspension part (the tightest part of a spring) should be on the unsprung part of that component, ie the chassis side - but I can't imagine it would make any difference except perhaps on a race bike. Certainly a lot of early rear suspensions were the opposite, perhaps because they looked better and no difference was noticeable?
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Re: Theoretical question

#23

Post by mikenixon »

Whiskerfish wrote:Why does a spring care what way is up or down? Other than fluid displacement (for accurate measuring purposes) I can think of no reason it should matter???

Spring Question.jpg
For the very same reason it matters in the case of valve springs, though in that case it's a lot more real-world. Once the spring's closer winds coilbind they're dead weight and that is best not added to the valve. Engines are said to have lower rev limits when the spring's closer winds are put on top, though, despite the industry hammering this into us mechanics, in 46 years I've never witnessed it. In suspension the same coilbound weight adds again, but this time to the swingarm and wheel. So in the case of suspension, front or rear, the closer winds should go to the top. But with that added weight being so small compared to the swingarm and wheel and axle weight, I have a hard time believing it really matters. Now, overriding all of this are special shock spring keepers and certain fork spring considerations. For example, some shocks have spring retainers that allow only one orientation. Takes it out of your hands. More commonly, many old-school damper rod style forks require the springs go a certain way for a handful of reasons, the most usual being noise concerns. A few 70s and 80s Honda forks will make screeching noises if the springs are put in with the closer winds up. :)
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