Question about getting a new piston

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robin1731
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Re: Question about getting a new piston

#16

Post by robin1731 »

First let me say that you talked about the bigger cam and domed so far back I forgot about it. So go from here.

Now you know why I get so much money to build a race engine. Put it together, measure, take it apart. We use fairly soft springs on the valves during mock up. And only install one each intake and exhaust valve. With bigger cams and high compression pistons you may have to get a slotted cam sprocket. That way you can adjust the cam timing. When you got the cam it should have come with a card telling you where to set everything. If you have a bigger cam I hope you got heavier valve springs too. And then you need to measure the valve spring pressure at installed height and possibly at full lift.

When doing an engine like this you really do need a degree wheel (and everything else that goes with it) to set the cam timing. That's the only way to get the most performance from your parts. You'll need at least one good dial indicator too.

And all that is just the beginning. ;)

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Re: Question about getting a new piston

#17

Post by avg_joe »

Here is where it stands right now. The visible notch on the left side of the sprocket has an identical counterpart on the other side, that should be even with the head surface.
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Re: Question about getting a new piston

#18

Post by avg_joe »

robin1731 wrote:First let me say that you talked about the bigger cam and domed so far back I forgot about it. So go from here.

Now you know why I get so much money to build a race engine. Put it together, measure, take it apart. We use fairly soft springs on the valves during mock up. And only install one each intake and exhaust valve. With bigger cams and high compression pistons you may have to get a slotted cam sprocket. That way you can adjust the cam timing. When you got the cam it should have come with a card telling you where to set everything. If you have a bigger cam I hope you got heavier valve springs too. And then you need to measure the valve spring pressure at installed height and possibly at full lift.

When doing an engine like this you really do need a degree wheel (and everything else that goes with it) to set the cam timing. That's the only way to get the most performance from your parts. You'll need at least one good dial indicator too.

And all that is just the beginning. ;)

.
I don't even know HOW you would install everything to measure. The rocker arms are mounted in the valve cover. Can't rotate everything unless it is together. Once it's together, how do you measure?
Yeah, I got a card telling me how much distance from valve guide seal to the keeper, and how much space between coils at full lift, etc.
I had the head work done by a reputable engine builder, but he only had the head and valves/springs.
The cam, valves and springs came from Webcamshafts together, so they should be compatible.
The piston is from Wiseco, and the only one available. So by default, I figure any other aftermarket parts should be compatible.
You mean there is more to it than that?!? :oops:
I may have gotten in a bit over my pay grade. :roll:
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Re: Question about getting a new piston

#19

Post by robin1731 »

avg_joe wrote:
robin1731 wrote:First let me say that you talked about the bigger cam and domed so far back I forgot about it. So go from here.

Now you know why I get so much money to build a race engine. Put it together, measure, take it apart. We use fairly soft springs on the valves during mock up. And only install one each intake and exhaust valve. With bigger cams and high compression pistons you may have to get a slotted cam sprocket. That way you can adjust the cam timing. When you got the cam it should have come with a card telling you where to set everything. If you have a bigger cam I hope you got heavier valve springs too. And then you need to measure the valve spring pressure at installed height and possibly at full lift.

When doing an engine like this you really do need a degree wheel (and everything else that goes with it) to set the cam timing. That's the only way to get the most performance from your parts. You'll need at least one good dial indicator too.

And all that is just the beginning. ;)

.
I don't even know HOW you would install everything to measure. The rocker arms are mounted in the valve cover. Can't rotate everything unless it is together. Once it's together, how do you measure?
Yeah, I got a card telling me how much distance from valve guide seal to the keeper, and how much space between coils at full lift, etc.
I had the head work done by a reputable engine builder, but he only had the head and valves/springs. hard to set it up correctly without the specs the manufacturer calls for, this could have been done with just what you gave them
The cam, valves and springs came from Webcamshafts together, so they should be compatible.
The piston is from Wiseco, and the only one available. So by default, I figure any other aftermarket parts should be compatible.
You mean there is more to it than that?!? :oops: yes
I may have gotten in a bit over my pay grade. :roll: looks like it
Even when everything is bought from the same manufacturer on something like this you don't just put it together and call it good.

You say you can't get In to measure things when it is all together. You can get in there to adjust the valves? Then there is room to check things. There isn't always a lot of room. Sometimes it takes special tools. Sometimes you have it together and apart a few times before it's all good.

You "could" try just putting it together as stock and run it. Might be fine. Might end in disaster. But the guy that made your piston and cam has no idea if you removed material from the head and or cylinder. So there is no way to know valve to piston clearance, valve to valve clearance, valve spring pressure at both installed height and full lift height, valve spring coil bind.

A big reason it costs so much to have high performance engines built is the time spent on mock up. Also the investment in tools to measure everything. No matter how many times I build the "same" engine I have to mock it up and measure all of the above items and more. They are all different.

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Re: Question about getting a new piston

#20

Post by avg_joe »

The specs card was probably in with all the stuff I brought him. I opened it up when I got it, and looked at it. Then put it all right back in the package to bring to 'engine dude'. If it wasn't, I think he would have said something about it. He called me about not having the valve stem seals, so he would have had me bring that when I brought the seals.

If that is the case, then 'engine dude' would have set all that up?
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Re: Question about getting a new piston

#21

Post by robin1731 »

avg_joe wrote:The specs card was probably in with all the stuff I brought him. I opened it up when I got it, and looked at it. Then put it all right back in the package to bring to 'engine dude'. If it wasn't, I think he would have said something about it. He called me about not having the valve stem seals, so he would have had me bring that when I brought the seals.

If that is the case, then 'engine dude' would have set all that up?

Only he can answer that question. Did he put the whole thing together? You asked about slotting the cam gear so that leads me to think maybe he didn't. Impossible to degree the cam without the slotted sprocket. You cam check it, And maybe he did and it was ok where it was. I've rarely seen that happen though with cams that even a little bigger than stock.

.

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Re: Question about getting a new piston

#22

Post by avg_joe »

Then he must not have. The valve cover is what holds the cam in, and he didn't have any of that.

I think I will probably just button it up, and see what happens. I have been fighting this thing all summer long, and by now, I'm not really sure if I care anymore. I am sick of not having what I need. I am sick of hunting around for parts that are no longer available. Sick of putting things back together, just to have to take them apart to fix stripped threads. And I want my darn garage space back.

I started this whole thing because I thought it was a shame that an otherwise good bike was just sitting there....waiting for a simple rebuild. Hopefully I can screw it up bad enough that I don't feel compelled to try again....problem solved.
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Re: Question about getting a new piston

#23

Post by hmratbam »

Hang in there,Joe! It'll all be worth it in the end!
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Re: Question about getting a new piston

#24

Post by avg_joe »

Thanks! I hope so!! I can't bring myself to put it together not knowing if it is right. I ordered a cam chain, so now I wait for that.
I have been waiting for some wave washers for putting the valve cover back together. When I took it apart, I see that one was missing, and has been since I got the bike. There is supposed to be one of these wave washers on the inboard side of each of the rockers, but when I took it apart that wasn't the case. There were 2 rockers that didn't have washers, and one of the rockers had a washer, and one of the rockers had two washers. The washers are NLA, but my local dealership was able to find some in Wisconsin. The dealer in WI said they mailed them, but they haven't showed up here, and it's been 2 weeks. :cry:

There is a bit of good news, though. I talked to the guys at a local shop, and figured how to check clearance from valves to piston without taking everything back apart.(by now, they just laugh when I walk in the door, I have been there so many times with questions. And then one of them looks past me, and out the window to see the bike....) :IDTS:

This project has been a challenge, for sure. In hindsight, I probably should have just gone with the 'stage 2' cam. That cam could have been used with stock piston/valves/springs. But knowing that I was going with a high compression piston, I got greedy, and thought I would go with the 'stage 3' cam, because if I am going to replace stuff, why not upgrade, right? idee2
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Re: Question about getting a new piston

#25

Post by avg_joe »

I installed the new cam chain today, and things line up MUCH nicer.
I got all the 'in the way stuff' put back, like the clutch, and oil pump, misc gears, etc.
Once I get the tensioner in, the only thing left to assemble is the valve cover. I still don't have that wave washer, but I might just put it together anyway.....Simple part, PITA to find.

I am starting to suspect that this thing just might end up running, in spite of my ineptitude.
Thanks!
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Re: Question about getting a new piston

#26

Post by robin1731 »

I have to ask. Why would you do all that work and get the performance parts and not get a new cam chain in the beginning? That's a normal part to replace when doing this kind of upgrade. ;)

A lot of guys would rather go with a manual cam chain adjuster too rather than an automatic one. If this engine does have one.

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Re: Question about getting a new piston

#27

Post by gltriker »

"I am starting to suspect that this thing just might end up running, in spite of my ineptitude."

Nope, it's Inexperience.
It can be daunting task learning to build something as details specific as an engine for the first time. And...... shockingly expensive, as well! :shock:
Especially, if you didn't have a Robin to mentor (prod) you in the right direction along the way! tumb2
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Re: Question about getting a new piston

#28

Post by avg_joe »

Yeah...That cam chain is just something I didn't think about. Doing this for the first time, and doing it to a dinosaur, and doing it without a supervisor. :dunno:
There has been quite a few things along the way that I didn't think about, going in to this.
When I ordered a gasket set, I didn't even consider that the head gasket wouldn't fit. oooops
The gasket kit I got from Vesrah is for a head without a reed valve, and I have a reed valve head, so the valve cover gasket won't work.
While I have it all apart, I might as well replace any oil seals I run into...never thought of that, or I could have had them ordered, and handy.
One of the bolts in the head pulled the threads out while trying to re-assemble, so I had to bring that in to get a heli-coil put in...or wait several days to order, and get the stuff to do it myself(and possibly screw it up...). :roll:
It goes on and on....

I am VERY grateful for the advise, and I know I will get straight answers here. This place rules!

I have done some measuring of things, and turned it over a few times by hand, and nothing collides, crunches, or grinds....
Going to pull the side cover off of the flywheel side, to replace the gasket....and see what else in there needs attention. Shouldn't need anything else...I did the stator when I got the bike put together the first time.
Then I think it should be about ready to put back in. I might even get to start it for the first time.....right before the end of the riding season. :IDTS:

I will look into the cam chain adjuster thing, too. If there is a manual version, and what it would take to convert.
Something else I didn't know I should be thinking about.
It's wood cutting season now, so I haven't been spending much wrench time, but I will.....
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Re: Question about getting a new piston

#29

Post by avg_joe »

Well...Some more progress, however slight.
The wave washers for the valve cover finally showed up. So I took the valve cover off, and apart again, to install them. I put the valve cover back on, and discovered that when I put it in place, I didn't get the sub-rockers lined up right, and couldn't set valve lash....so off again! Easy fix, but still frustrating.

On to the flywheel cover side of the engine...
Pulled the cover to replace the gasket. While doing this, I discovered one of the wires from the stator has a bare spot. I will have to wrap it with some electrical tape, after I go to town to buy some. I found multiple rolls of duct tape, some masking tape, some aluminum foil tape, some double sided tape, some foam mounting tape, some clear packing tape...but no electrical tape!!!

I replaced the gasket, and re-installed the cover...only to discover a stripped out bolt hole when I tried to tighten the bolts. So......the cover comes off again.
It was a 6mm bolt, and I have a thread repair kit for those. So that was a pretty simple procedure, as well.

I think the engine is pretty much done, and together.....Now, on to the carbs.
It has dual carbs, and the linkage from the primary to secondary carb is loose and sloppy, and pops off of it's pivot. I have looked at it before to fix it, but the part is NLA. I will see about converting the link to something a bit more current. I think that I can make parts from the steering setup of an R/C car. Some threaded rod, some ball ends, and some ball studs should make it work.....I hope. I guess I will see when I tear into it.

The saga continues......
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Re: Question about getting a new piston

#30

Post by avg_joe »

Well....I fixed it!
I got a linkage setup to work, and threw it all together. Now I can throw it all away.

I got it fired up after a few kicks and let it run for a minute. Shut it off and checked the oil...all good.
Fired it up again, and let it run for another minute, or so....then it blew up. It seems to have blown a head gasket, as it was smoking, and got a couple of pretty loud pops from what sounded like that area before I shut it off.
I will probably tear it apart just to see what failed, but I don't have much hope of putting it together again.

I was stupid for even attempting a performance build.

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