Question about getting a new piston
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- avg_joe
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- Location: Pennock, Minnesota
Question about getting a new piston
I have decided to get serious about getting my XL600R back on the road. I pulled it from service due to excessive oil consumption, and excessive oil leaks, and it seemed like it was a bit lacking in compression when it was warm. I needed to use the decompression lever to start it when it was cold, but if it was warm, I could push through the compression stroke without much effort. It's been sitting sullenly in the corner for a couple of years. About 2 times a year I roll it out to the driveway and fire it up and rod around town for a few minutes, just to show it I still love it.
So...I pulled the engine out and pulled the top end off. I found pretty much what I expected to find...A dirt bike engine with over 20 thousand miles on the clock. Cam looks good, no galling and such. Just worn below spec.
Rocker pads look good, too. But they show the wear of the years when you hold them up to the light.
The head looks good enough. Could use a cleaning after eating all that oil, though. But the valves look good at first glance, and could probably just be lapped in, again.....hoping anyway.
Cylinder looks good, no scoring, and can still make out cross hatching...But worn over spec. Gonna have to punch a bigger hole.
The question is.....(I get there eventually...)
When ordering the new piston kit, I have the option of having it ceramic coated. Is it really better, or just more money?
It is 35 bucks extra for the coating, and in the grand scheme of things, is pretty insignificant...if it helps.
If it's just for 'fancy factor', I would rather put that 35 bucks into a fancy supermoto front fender.
Opinions??? Experiences???
The kit is from XRs Only, and they say it is a 'JE Pistons' kit.
If anybody has any recommendations for cam manufacturers, also...
I put a megacycle cam in my FT 500, and like it, but with no comparison with other brands, I call on the wisdom of the wingdom.
Thanks,
avg_joe
So...I pulled the engine out and pulled the top end off. I found pretty much what I expected to find...A dirt bike engine with over 20 thousand miles on the clock. Cam looks good, no galling and such. Just worn below spec.
Rocker pads look good, too. But they show the wear of the years when you hold them up to the light.
The head looks good enough. Could use a cleaning after eating all that oil, though. But the valves look good at first glance, and could probably just be lapped in, again.....hoping anyway.
Cylinder looks good, no scoring, and can still make out cross hatching...But worn over spec. Gonna have to punch a bigger hole.
The question is.....(I get there eventually...)
When ordering the new piston kit, I have the option of having it ceramic coated. Is it really better, or just more money?
It is 35 bucks extra for the coating, and in the grand scheme of things, is pretty insignificant...if it helps.
If it's just for 'fancy factor', I would rather put that 35 bucks into a fancy supermoto front fender.
Opinions??? Experiences???
The kit is from XRs Only, and they say it is a 'JE Pistons' kit.
If anybody has any recommendations for cam manufacturers, also...
I put a megacycle cam in my FT 500, and like it, but with no comparison with other brands, I call on the wisdom of the wingdom.
Thanks,
avg_joe
In the garage:
1977 GL1000
1982 GL1100 with California Side Car hack
1982 FT500 Ascot(Wife's bike)
1983 FT500 Ascot
1983 XL600R(with some 85 parts)
1977 GL1000
1982 GL1100 with California Side Car hack
1982 FT500 Ascot(Wife's bike)
1983 FT500 Ascot
1983 XL600R(with some 85 parts)
- robin1731
- Membership Admin
- Posts: 21724
- Joined: Mon May 29, 2006 8:31 am
- Location: Decatur, Indiana
Re: Question about getting a new piston
If you were racing I'd say absolutely. For general use it's not that important.
On a different note. Replace the valves. They've already been lapped once? You are already there. Do it right.
I'd replace the valve springs too.
.
On a different note. Replace the valves. They've already been lapped once? You are already there. Do it right.
I'd replace the valve springs too.
.
1976 Goldwing Super Sport
1985 Honda Elite
1976 KZ900 Dragbike
1992 ZX7 Dragbike (KZ900 style motor w/NOS)
and a rotation of various purchases
Randakk approved Carb Rebuilder
1985 Honda Elite
1976 KZ900 Dragbike
1992 ZX7 Dragbike (KZ900 style motor w/NOS)
and a rotation of various purchases
Randakk approved Carb Rebuilder
- avg_joe
- Titanium Member
- Posts: 494
- Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 11:51 am
- My Album: http://s959.photobucket.com/albums/ae79 ... torcycles/
- Location: Pennock, Minnesota
Re: Question about getting a new piston
Cool. That was kinda what I thought, but I wanted to hear from somebody with some experience. I figure the original one went 20,000 miles...That's probably pretty good for a dirt bike, that got thrashed on regularly.
Yeah.....about the valves... I was supposed to have done that when I had it apart before?
I don't know about it's life before I got it, but I put a newer bottom end on it a few years back, due to a bad 3rd gear in the trans. I was doing it on the cheap that time for sure. I stuck my old piston(rings and all) on the new rod, and slid the jug back on. No head work, no new rings, no cylinder honing....The only things that didn't leak were the brakes, and the new head and base gaskets, and the gas tank. It ran, and it was fun....so it was 'fixed'.
I haven't given it much thought yet, as I haven't decided on a cam. I sort of figured I might have to replace valves and springs depending on the cam choice. I have been sort-of 'on the fence' about trying to get by on the cheap vs. doing it right........
But, as the saying goes....'In for a dime, in for a dollar'.
Looks like my fancy supermoto front fender will have to wait until my fancy valves and springs are done.
Going to have to get me a valve spring tool, now.
Thanks.
Yeah.....about the valves... I was supposed to have done that when I had it apart before?
I don't know about it's life before I got it, but I put a newer bottom end on it a few years back, due to a bad 3rd gear in the trans. I was doing it on the cheap that time for sure. I stuck my old piston(rings and all) on the new rod, and slid the jug back on. No head work, no new rings, no cylinder honing....The only things that didn't leak were the brakes, and the new head and base gaskets, and the gas tank. It ran, and it was fun....so it was 'fixed'.
I haven't given it much thought yet, as I haven't decided on a cam. I sort of figured I might have to replace valves and springs depending on the cam choice. I have been sort-of 'on the fence' about trying to get by on the cheap vs. doing it right........
But, as the saying goes....'In for a dime, in for a dollar'.
Looks like my fancy supermoto front fender will have to wait until my fancy valves and springs are done.
Going to have to get me a valve spring tool, now.
Thanks.
In the garage:
1977 GL1000
1982 GL1100 with California Side Car hack
1982 FT500 Ascot(Wife's bike)
1983 FT500 Ascot
1983 XL600R(with some 85 parts)
1977 GL1000
1982 GL1100 with California Side Car hack
1982 FT500 Ascot(Wife's bike)
1983 FT500 Ascot
1983 XL600R(with some 85 parts)
- wingrider
- SUPER BIKER!!!!
- Posts: 3724
- Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 12:15 pm
- Location: Maple Lake, MN USA
Re: Question about getting a new piston
I believe you can rent/borrow valve spring compressors from Oreilly's...not sure what auto parts stores you have around you. If you have a Napa, they do also, but you end up paying a little bit to use it, unlike Oreilly's, where you get all your money back when you return it.
2002 1800 Wing
2001 Valkyrie Interstate
1978 1200 EFI Wing with Motorvation Coupe Royale sidecar
1977 1200 Wing cafe/bobber project
1974 Suzuki GT550
2001 Valkyrie Interstate
1978 1200 EFI Wing with Motorvation Coupe Royale sidecar
1977 1200 Wing cafe/bobber project
1974 Suzuki GT550
- avg_joe
- Titanium Member
- Posts: 494
- Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 11:51 am
- My Album: http://s959.photobucket.com/albums/ae79 ... torcycles/
- Location: Pennock, Minnesota
Re: Question about getting a new piston
That's a thought. I did that with a ball joint press a couple years back from Advance Auto Parts.
In the garage:
1977 GL1000
1982 GL1100 with California Side Car hack
1982 FT500 Ascot(Wife's bike)
1983 FT500 Ascot
1983 XL600R(with some 85 parts)
1977 GL1000
1982 GL1100 with California Side Car hack
1982 FT500 Ascot(Wife's bike)
1983 FT500 Ascot
1983 XL600R(with some 85 parts)
- Easter
- True Blue Steel Biker
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- Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:33 am
- Location: South of Houston 100 miles
Re: Question about getting a new piston
I have a XR600R too, patiently waiting its turn for restoration or at least resuscitation, I also have a spare engine and other parts. I have been putting it off because of the kick start. Have never been able to get the compression release to work correctly. When I was younger and wore enduro boots it wasn't much of an issue but now I worry about hurting--well, everything!
Bikes at present:
83 XL 600r with a 2004 XR650L engine
And a slightly worse for the wear BMW GS adventure bike awaiting repair
83 GL in process
83 XL 600r with a 2004 XR650L engine
And a slightly worse for the wear BMW GS adventure bike awaiting repair
83 GL in process
- avg_joe
- Titanium Member
- Posts: 494
- Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 11:51 am
- My Album: http://s959.photobucket.com/albums/ae79 ... torcycles/
- Location: Pennock, Minnesota
Re: Question about getting a new piston
Well........
I have been doing some thinking.....and price checking...
I knew that it was going to take some money to do right, but I wasn't prepared for THAT number!!
But it's going to get it ALL! Piston, overbore, new valves, new springs/keepers etc., new big lumpy cam....the works.
I have ordered the new piston, and will package up the cam and rockers to be sent off to Webcamshafts, tomorrow.
Now that I have accepted that I will have to spend all my money, I am getting sort of excited to get the thing back together.
It seems that the only oversize piston available raises the compression from the factory 8.2:1, to 11:1. So it stands to reason that if I am going to bump the compression up, I might as well get a cam that takes advantage of the increase. So that means performance springs....
This bike had quite a bit of power the way it ran before....I can't wait to see what it's going to be like after the treatment.
I put a new cam in my FT500 last year, and put in the profile that uses the stock valve springs. The performance increase was quite noticeable. Puts much more power into the mid, and upper RPMs compared to my wife's FT.
Using that as my benchmark, I suspect that this treatment is going to create a beast.
BWAAAAAAH HAAAAA HAAAAA!!!!! . Going to be AWESOME!!!
I hope.
I have been doing some thinking.....and price checking...
I knew that it was going to take some money to do right, but I wasn't prepared for THAT number!!
But it's going to get it ALL! Piston, overbore, new valves, new springs/keepers etc., new big lumpy cam....the works.
I have ordered the new piston, and will package up the cam and rockers to be sent off to Webcamshafts, tomorrow.
Now that I have accepted that I will have to spend all my money, I am getting sort of excited to get the thing back together.
It seems that the only oversize piston available raises the compression from the factory 8.2:1, to 11:1. So it stands to reason that if I am going to bump the compression up, I might as well get a cam that takes advantage of the increase. So that means performance springs....
This bike had quite a bit of power the way it ran before....I can't wait to see what it's going to be like after the treatment.
I put a new cam in my FT500 last year, and put in the profile that uses the stock valve springs. The performance increase was quite noticeable. Puts much more power into the mid, and upper RPMs compared to my wife's FT.
Using that as my benchmark, I suspect that this treatment is going to create a beast.
BWAAAAAAH HAAAAA HAAAAA!!!!! . Going to be AWESOME!!!
I hope.
In the garage:
1977 GL1000
1982 GL1100 with California Side Car hack
1982 FT500 Ascot(Wife's bike)
1983 FT500 Ascot
1983 XL600R(with some 85 parts)
1977 GL1000
1982 GL1100 with California Side Car hack
1982 FT500 Ascot(Wife's bike)
1983 FT500 Ascot
1983 XL600R(with some 85 parts)
- avg_joe
- Titanium Member
- Posts: 494
- Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 11:51 am
- My Album: http://s959.photobucket.com/albums/ae79 ... torcycles/
- Location: Pennock, Minnesota
Re: Question about getting a new piston
So.....Finally getting close to actually closing this thing up. It's been a process, to say the least.
When installing the cam in the head, I am instructed to line up the 'T' mark on the flywheel, and to align the notches on the cam sprocket with the surface of the head. Then put the chain on the sprocket with everything perfectly aligned.
It seems that I am not able to do this. It either lines up slightly off on one tooth, or next tooth is quite a bit off. Is this an indication of stretched cam chain, or do I need to slot the bolt holes a little bit?
I'm still waiting for some stupid wave washers for the valve cover to show up. They are NLA, but the parts guy at the local Honda dealer found some at a dealer in Wisconsin, and had them mail them. He knows I'm a cheapskate, so he had them send it USPS to keep shipping cost down, and they may have gotten lost, or something. It's been a week and a half and they haven't showed up yet. It's always something!
When installing the cam in the head, I am instructed to line up the 'T' mark on the flywheel, and to align the notches on the cam sprocket with the surface of the head. Then put the chain on the sprocket with everything perfectly aligned.
It seems that I am not able to do this. It either lines up slightly off on one tooth, or next tooth is quite a bit off. Is this an indication of stretched cam chain, or do I need to slot the bolt holes a little bit?
I'm still waiting for some stupid wave washers for the valve cover to show up. They are NLA, but the parts guy at the local Honda dealer found some at a dealer in Wisconsin, and had them mail them. He knows I'm a cheapskate, so he had them send it USPS to keep shipping cost down, and they may have gotten lost, or something. It's been a week and a half and they haven't showed up yet. It's always something!
In the garage:
1977 GL1000
1982 GL1100 with California Side Car hack
1982 FT500 Ascot(Wife's bike)
1983 FT500 Ascot
1983 XL600R(with some 85 parts)
1977 GL1000
1982 GL1100 with California Side Car hack
1982 FT500 Ascot(Wife's bike)
1983 FT500 Ascot
1983 XL600R(with some 85 parts)
- robin1731
- Membership Admin
- Posts: 21724
- Joined: Mon May 29, 2006 8:31 am
- Location: Decatur, Indiana
Re: Question about getting a new piston
Can't answer your question without seeing it. Do exactly what the manual says.
Do not slot the cam sprocket bolt holes.
Unless you have the tools and know how to degree a cam.
.
Do not slot the cam sprocket bolt holes.
Unless you have the tools and know how to degree a cam.
.
1976 Goldwing Super Sport
1985 Honda Elite
1976 KZ900 Dragbike
1992 ZX7 Dragbike (KZ900 style motor w/NOS)
and a rotation of various purchases
Randakk approved Carb Rebuilder
1985 Honda Elite
1976 KZ900 Dragbike
1992 ZX7 Dragbike (KZ900 style motor w/NOS)
and a rotation of various purchases
Randakk approved Carb Rebuilder
- gltriker
- Honored Life Member
- Posts: 5053
- Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2010 9:11 pm
- Location: central NY State
Re: Question about getting a new piston
" I figure the original one went 20,000 miles...That's probably pretty good for a dirt bike, that got thrashed on regularly."
20,000 miles? Procure a new cam chain. Sprockets, too.
20,000 miles? Procure a new cam chain. Sprockets, too.
Last edited by gltriker on Fri Sep 30, 2016 10:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Cliff (74yrs )
Keep your eyes and ears open and you'll learn something new, everyday.
New users please visit our "Shop Talk" for common tips and help: <---jdvorchak
http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/page/ST
^^^^^^^click up here^^^^^
RE: a thorough fuel tank cleaning
"And your carbs will thank you. They no longer live down stream from a sewage plant." -gregforesi
"Can't see the paint when your looking thru the handlebars..........." -Oldewing
"I'd rather Ride than Shine" -RAT Me Too!!
Cliff
'75 GL1000 home built trike; http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=39996
October,2017 BOTM https://nakedgoldwingsclub.com/forum/page/Welcome
previous rides:
1953 H-D Servi-car, naked, 1969-1978 (serial#53G1559 committed to memory!)
1980 CB900 Custom (triked) 1997-2003 .... R.I.P.
Keep your eyes and ears open and you'll learn something new, everyday.
New users please visit our "Shop Talk" for common tips and help: <---jdvorchak
http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/page/ST
^^^^^^^click up here^^^^^
RE: a thorough fuel tank cleaning
"And your carbs will thank you. They no longer live down stream from a sewage plant." -gregforesi
"Can't see the paint when your looking thru the handlebars..........." -Oldewing
"I'd rather Ride than Shine" -RAT Me Too!!
Cliff
'75 GL1000 home built trike; http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=39996
October,2017 BOTM https://nakedgoldwingsclub.com/forum/page/Welcome
previous rides:
1953 H-D Servi-car, naked, 1969-1978 (serial#53G1559 committed to memory!)
1980 CB900 Custom (triked) 1997-2003 .... R.I.P.
- avg_joe
- Titanium Member
- Posts: 494
- Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 11:51 am
- My Album: http://s959.photobucket.com/albums/ae79 ... torcycles/
- Location: Pennock, Minnesota
Re: Question about getting a new piston
Well, I don't have that. So I guess I won't do that....
I am concerned that they don't line up exactly, though.
It's only a little bit off, but it's obviously off. I will try to get a picture tomorrow, when I have some decent light.
I have done it by the manual several times, and it comes out the same each time....At least I'm consistent. Still not right, but consistent.....
Thanks for the speedy reply. I've done quite a bit of screwing around with this thing, so far. I don't want to ruin it now, when it's actually getting close to being done.
I am concerned that they don't line up exactly, though.
It's only a little bit off, but it's obviously off. I will try to get a picture tomorrow, when I have some decent light.
I have done it by the manual several times, and it comes out the same each time....At least I'm consistent. Still not right, but consistent.....
Thanks for the speedy reply. I've done quite a bit of screwing around with this thing, so far. I don't want to ruin it now, when it's actually getting close to being done.
In the garage:
1977 GL1000
1982 GL1100 with California Side Car hack
1982 FT500 Ascot(Wife's bike)
1983 FT500 Ascot
1983 XL600R(with some 85 parts)
1977 GL1000
1982 GL1100 with California Side Car hack
1982 FT500 Ascot(Wife's bike)
1983 FT500 Ascot
1983 XL600R(with some 85 parts)
- gltriker
- Honored Life Member
- Posts: 5053
- Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2010 9:11 pm
- Location: central NY State
Re: Question about getting a new piston
Does the manual give a method to determine serviceability of a used cam chain?
Cliff (74yrs )
Keep your eyes and ears open and you'll learn something new, everyday.
New users please visit our "Shop Talk" for common tips and help: <---jdvorchak
http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/page/ST
^^^^^^^click up here^^^^^
RE: a thorough fuel tank cleaning
"And your carbs will thank you. They no longer live down stream from a sewage plant." -gregforesi
"Can't see the paint when your looking thru the handlebars..........." -Oldewing
"I'd rather Ride than Shine" -RAT Me Too!!
Cliff
'75 GL1000 home built trike; http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=39996
October,2017 BOTM https://nakedgoldwingsclub.com/forum/page/Welcome
previous rides:
1953 H-D Servi-car, naked, 1969-1978 (serial#53G1559 committed to memory!)
1980 CB900 Custom (triked) 1997-2003 .... R.I.P.
Keep your eyes and ears open and you'll learn something new, everyday.
New users please visit our "Shop Talk" for common tips and help: <---jdvorchak
http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/page/ST
^^^^^^^click up here^^^^^
RE: a thorough fuel tank cleaning
"And your carbs will thank you. They no longer live down stream from a sewage plant." -gregforesi
"Can't see the paint when your looking thru the handlebars..........." -Oldewing
"I'd rather Ride than Shine" -RAT Me Too!!
Cliff
'75 GL1000 home built trike; http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=39996
October,2017 BOTM https://nakedgoldwingsclub.com/forum/page/Welcome
previous rides:
1953 H-D Servi-car, naked, 1969-1978 (serial#53G1559 committed to memory!)
1980 CB900 Custom (triked) 1997-2003 .... R.I.P.
- avg_joe
- Titanium Member
- Posts: 494
- Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 11:51 am
- My Album: http://s959.photobucket.com/albums/ae79 ... torcycles/
- Location: Pennock, Minnesota
Re: Question about getting a new piston
All I have is the Clymer manual, and it doesn't go into those details.
The chain is still available, so I will probably cough up another hundred bucks and get it.
Sprocket is discontinued, though.
The chain is still available, so I will probably cough up another hundred bucks and get it.
Sprocket is discontinued, though.
In the garage:
1977 GL1000
1982 GL1100 with California Side Car hack
1982 FT500 Ascot(Wife's bike)
1983 FT500 Ascot
1983 XL600R(with some 85 parts)
1977 GL1000
1982 GL1100 with California Side Car hack
1982 FT500 Ascot(Wife's bike)
1983 FT500 Ascot
1983 XL600R(with some 85 parts)
- robin1731
- Membership Admin
- Posts: 21724
- Joined: Mon May 29, 2006 8:31 am
- Location: Decatur, Indiana
Re: Question about getting a new piston
Cam sprockets rarely need changed. The chain, if it does have that many miles, is probably stretched. But even a very stretched chain you should be able to line up pretty close. What about the cam chain adjuster?
.
.
1976 Goldwing Super Sport
1985 Honda Elite
1976 KZ900 Dragbike
1992 ZX7 Dragbike (KZ900 style motor w/NOS)
and a rotation of various purchases
Randakk approved Carb Rebuilder
1985 Honda Elite
1976 KZ900 Dragbike
1992 ZX7 Dragbike (KZ900 style motor w/NOS)
and a rotation of various purchases
Randakk approved Carb Rebuilder
- avg_joe
- Titanium Member
- Posts: 494
- Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 11:51 am
- My Album: http://s959.photobucket.com/albums/ae79 ... torcycles/
- Location: Pennock, Minnesota
Re: Question about getting a new piston
It does line up pretty close. The cam chain adjuster isn't in yet, but I have been making sure that the slack is taken out on the correct side.
If I was putting a stock engine back together, I probably wouldn't worry about it, but with a higher compression piston and big cam lobes, I am concerned that things might interfere.
The valve cover has the rocker arms in it, and that is where the missing wave washer is supposed to go. So I don't have the valve cover assembly together, and can't turn it over to see if things are going to hit each other.
There is also a whole list of things I am supposed to check clearance of, that I don't see how to do. I can't operate any valves to check for coil bind, etc. until the valve cover is installed. Once valve cover is installed, I don't see how to check.
This thing has been spread out across my garage all summer long, and has been frustrating from the start. I am beginning to regret taking on this project. I have poured copious amounts of money, and time into this thing, and it isn't showing any appreciation for my efforts. Gets frustrating. Seems like every time I get to the next step, there is something else.
If I was putting a stock engine back together, I probably wouldn't worry about it, but with a higher compression piston and big cam lobes, I am concerned that things might interfere.
The valve cover has the rocker arms in it, and that is where the missing wave washer is supposed to go. So I don't have the valve cover assembly together, and can't turn it over to see if things are going to hit each other.
There is also a whole list of things I am supposed to check clearance of, that I don't see how to do. I can't operate any valves to check for coil bind, etc. until the valve cover is installed. Once valve cover is installed, I don't see how to check.
This thing has been spread out across my garage all summer long, and has been frustrating from the start. I am beginning to regret taking on this project. I have poured copious amounts of money, and time into this thing, and it isn't showing any appreciation for my efforts. Gets frustrating. Seems like every time I get to the next step, there is something else.
In the garage:
1977 GL1000
1982 GL1100 with California Side Car hack
1982 FT500 Ascot(Wife's bike)
1983 FT500 Ascot
1983 XL600R(with some 85 parts)
1977 GL1000
1982 GL1100 with California Side Car hack
1982 FT500 Ascot(Wife's bike)
1983 FT500 Ascot
1983 XL600R(with some 85 parts)
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