1980 KZ1300 - Bad Day at the Office

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Lucien Harpress
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Re: 1980 KZ1300 - Priorities!

#781

Post by Lucien Harpress »

So the Distinguished Gentleman's Ride is coming up in about a month, and for some reason I'm angling to get the big 1300 ready in time. So for the first time in 2022 I topped up the battery, hooked up the IV bag of fuel, and hit the ignition button:

One of the coils ate itself. (Primary resistance is good, secondary resistance is open- not good.) So, I unhooked everything, pulled the coil, ordered a replacement, and gave thanks I have a CB750.

(I'm not even surprised at this point. It's just funny.)
1997 Valkyrie- Light Cutomization, but Too Busy Riding
1980 KZ1300- Bike's Haunted
1976 GL1000 (Yellow)- It Runs (Poorly) and Doesn't Leak (Mostly)
1974 Velosolex 3800- Better Than Walking
1972 CB750- Broke the Chain And Ate the Motor
1969 CT90- The Most Fun You Can Have on 90ccs.
1965 CA77 Dream- Needs a Full Teardown, but Complete

All advice I give is only valid until an expert corrects me.
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gltriker
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Re: 1980 KZ1300 - Priorities!

#782

Post by gltriker »

The Ignition Coil associated with the #3 cylinder?
Cliff (74yrs ;) )

Keep your eyes and ears open and you'll learn something new, everyday. tumb2

New users please visit our "Shop Talk" for common tips and help: <---jdvorchak
http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/page/ST
^^^^^^^click up here^^^^^ :oldies

RE: a thorough fuel tank cleaning
"And your carbs will thank you. They no longer live down stream from a sewage plant." -gregforesi tumb2
"Can't see the paint when your looking thru the handlebars..........." -Oldewing ;)
"I'd rather Ride than Shine" -RAT tumb2 Me Too!!

Cliff

'75 GL1000 home built trike; http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=39996
October,2017 BOTM :shock: https://nakedgoldwingsclub.com/forum/page/Welcome

previous rides:
1953 H-D Servi-car, naked, 1969-1978 (serial#53G1559 committed to memory!)
1980 CB900 Custom (triked) 1997-2003 .... R.I.P.
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Re: 1980 KZ1300 - Priorities!

#783

Post by wingrider »

I was wondering the same thing….
2002 1800 Wing
2001 Valkyrie Interstate
1978 1200 EFI Wing with Motorvation Coupe Royale sidecar
1977 1200 Wing cafe/bobber project
1974 Suzuki GT550
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Lucien Harpress
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Re: 1980 KZ1300 - Priorities!

#784

Post by Lucien Harpress »

Nope- 2 and 5. Because consistency is overrated.

EDIT: Jokes aside, I'm beginning to think the cylinder 3 problems were symptoms of the old carbs. At speed (over 4k RPM) the new carbs perform noticably better than the old ones did. I'm just having idle-to-midrange transition problems- probably mixture screws.

Problem with that? KZ1300 gurus are few and far between. "Experts" say the screws are best set at 3.5-4 turns out, but the service manual says start at 1.5 turns, and a majority of the (still capped off by the factory) screws of my carbs were anywhere from 1.5-2 turns out. Last time I had it running it was definitely overly-rich on the idle, and I was hoping to dial this in better yesterday before, well...

The coil definitely ate itself. THAT I was able to test and verify. It's something this bike had a tendency to do, apparently.
1997 Valkyrie- Light Cutomization, but Too Busy Riding
1980 KZ1300- Bike's Haunted
1976 GL1000 (Yellow)- It Runs (Poorly) and Doesn't Leak (Mostly)
1974 Velosolex 3800- Better Than Walking
1972 CB750- Broke the Chain And Ate the Motor
1969 CT90- The Most Fun You Can Have on 90ccs.
1965 CA77 Dream- Needs a Full Teardown, but Complete

All advice I give is only valid until an expert corrects me.
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Lucien Harpress
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Re: 1980 KZ1300 - Bike's Haunted

#785

Post by Lucien Harpress »

I genuinely don't know. Ghosts are literally the best option I've got right now.

Replacement coil came in the mail. Tested it beforehand, all the resistances check out, put on the wires and plug caps, do another check for science, still all good, fire the bike up-

Still runs like crap. Only getting fire on 4 cylinders (again). Except NOW the problem has migrated to cylinders 5 and 6. They share a carb, but that's it.

6 was running PERFECTLY last time.

Swapped plugs, didn't matter. The slides were kinda stuck on that carb, but I freed those, didn't matter. Plugs are damp, so SOME amount of fuel is getting to them, didn't matter.

Gotta be ghosts.

(I'll be pulling the carb rack AGAIN at some point. I honestly don't know what I'm looking for, but I got nothing else. Maybe new plugs? But yeah- I got nothing.)
1997 Valkyrie- Light Cutomization, but Too Busy Riding
1980 KZ1300- Bike's Haunted
1976 GL1000 (Yellow)- It Runs (Poorly) and Doesn't Leak (Mostly)
1974 Velosolex 3800- Better Than Walking
1972 CB750- Broke the Chain And Ate the Motor
1969 CT90- The Most Fun You Can Have on 90ccs.
1965 CA77 Dream- Needs a Full Teardown, but Complete

All advice I give is only valid until an expert corrects me.
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desertrefugee
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Re: 1980 KZ1300 - Bike's Haunted

#786

Post by desertrefugee »

I’m confused. You’re talking about electrical gremlins here and yet you say you need to pull the carb rack again. What’s the logic path that leads to that action? Maybe there is a harness intermittency somewhere? Is there a sub harness feeding the coils? I don’t believe I would go pulling the carburetors quite yet… At least not from the sound of the trouble you’re describing.
- Life is not about waiting for the storms to pass. It's about learning to ride in the rain.
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Lucien Harpress
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Re: 1980 KZ1300 - Bike's Haunted

#787

Post by Lucien Harpress »

Mostly to do with how things are paired. Cylinders 1-6, 2-5 and 3-4 share coils, while cylinders 1-2, 3-4, and 5-6 share carbs. A couple days ago, it wasn't running on cylinders 2-5, which led me to checking on that coil in the first place. Now, the problem migrated to 5-6, which only share the carb- if it was the coil (or anything feeding that coil, ie electrical), you'd expect 1 and 2 to be acting up as well- those guys ran just fine. Just for fun I checked the secondary resistance on the coil for 1-6, and it checked out fine. I'll probably double-check the primary here in a second.

The stuck slides on the carb for 5-6 push me that direction too- the bike has sat for a bit, most of the winter.

That said, it does baffle me a bit how sitting for that short of time can cause a third of the engine to just NOT fire, or even try to. I may look up how to check the igniter, just for fun. But even then I didn't think it had a way to differentiate between the sides of a two-lead coil.

Or maybe I'm just overthinking everything, and fresh plugs will solve everything? (Seeing as how swapping existing plugs around didn't do much, I'm not holding my breath.)

I don't know. Like I said- haunted.
1997 Valkyrie- Light Cutomization, but Too Busy Riding
1980 KZ1300- Bike's Haunted
1976 GL1000 (Yellow)- It Runs (Poorly) and Doesn't Leak (Mostly)
1974 Velosolex 3800- Better Than Walking
1972 CB750- Broke the Chain And Ate the Motor
1969 CT90- The Most Fun You Can Have on 90ccs.
1965 CA77 Dream- Needs a Full Teardown, but Complete

All advice I give is only valid until an expert corrects me.
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Lucien Harpress
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Re: 1980 KZ1300 - Bike's Haunted

#788

Post by Lucien Harpress »

Just for fun I pulled the IC Igniter module and did some resistance checks as outlined by the service manual. Results are.... well, I'm not sure.

Certain readings check out fine, about half of them. Certain other ones either don't register, or have resistances so high they're peaking above the range my meter (200KΩ), when they're supposed to be 20-40K.

Or I'm just using the meter wrong. Which is ALWAYS a possibility.

(I just want to make sure before jumping to any conclusions that my igniter is bad. Because that is a HEFTY chunk of change for replacement. And I've done enough "just chuck spare parts at it", and not nearly enough problem solving.)
1997 Valkyrie- Light Cutomization, but Too Busy Riding
1980 KZ1300- Bike's Haunted
1976 GL1000 (Yellow)- It Runs (Poorly) and Doesn't Leak (Mostly)
1974 Velosolex 3800- Better Than Walking
1972 CB750- Broke the Chain And Ate the Motor
1969 CT90- The Most Fun You Can Have on 90ccs.
1965 CA77 Dream- Needs a Full Teardown, but Complete

All advice I give is only valid until an expert corrects me.
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gltriker
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Re: 1980 KZ1300 - Bike's Haunted

#789

Post by gltriker »

Perhaps changing the battery in your meter will be a best practice
Cliff (74yrs ;) )

Keep your eyes and ears open and you'll learn something new, everyday. tumb2

New users please visit our "Shop Talk" for common tips and help: <---jdvorchak
http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/page/ST
^^^^^^^click up here^^^^^ :oldies

RE: a thorough fuel tank cleaning
"And your carbs will thank you. They no longer live down stream from a sewage plant." -gregforesi tumb2
"Can't see the paint when your looking thru the handlebars..........." -Oldewing ;)
"I'd rather Ride than Shine" -RAT tumb2 Me Too!!

Cliff

'75 GL1000 home built trike; http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=39996
October,2017 BOTM :shock: https://nakedgoldwingsclub.com/forum/page/Welcome

previous rides:
1953 H-D Servi-car, naked, 1969-1978 (serial#53G1559 committed to memory!)
1980 CB900 Custom (triked) 1997-2003 .... R.I.P.
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Lucien Harpress
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Re: 1980 KZ1300 - Bike's Haunted

#790

Post by Lucien Harpress »

That's the plan. I also snagged a cheap analog multimeter, just in case. I read in at least one place that the components in igniters can sometimes make digital multimeters go all goofy, and because I know LITERALLY nothing, I figure what's the harm in trying.
1997 Valkyrie- Light Cutomization, but Too Busy Riding
1980 KZ1300- Bike's Haunted
1976 GL1000 (Yellow)- It Runs (Poorly) and Doesn't Leak (Mostly)
1974 Velosolex 3800- Better Than Walking
1972 CB750- Broke the Chain And Ate the Motor
1969 CT90- The Most Fun You Can Have on 90ccs.
1965 CA77 Dream- Needs a Full Teardown, but Complete

All advice I give is only valid until an expert corrects me.
User avatar
desertrefugee
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Re: 1980 KZ1300 - Bike's Haunted

#791

Post by desertrefugee »

Even with a questionable meter, unless it’s completely random and intermittent in operation, the easiest way to assess your coil behavior is to compare with the others. If you have one that’s consistently reading different than the others, either primary or secondary side, focus there.
- Life is not about waiting for the storms to pass. It's about learning to ride in the rain.
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Lucien Harpress
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Re: 1980 KZ1300 - Bike's Haunted

#792

Post by Lucien Harpress »

Whelp, for better or worse my Igniter checks out to spec. The analog multimeter DID make a difference, and after a couple run-throughs of the procedure in the manual, everything reads like it should. It's not overly surprising, as I've never NOT gotten spark, but I can't really verify how strong/weak they are.

I guess it's next down the list of ignition components- One ignition coil measures good (primary and secondary), because I just replaced it. One more measures good on the secondary for sure, not sure of the primary. The third I can double-check, but the cylinders it feeds had no problems run last time.

I've got test specs for the pickup coils as well that I can double-check.

The only other thing I can think that's different from a stock setup (apart from changing the coils and ditching the ballast resistor- it's a whole thing, but is apparently a common swap for the 1300) is the primary connections for the coils where they tie into the wiring harness are male spade terminals, vs bullet connectors for the original components. I had to add female connectors to the wiring harness, but these don't have any outer insulation.

Now, none of the connections are all that close to the frame, so I wasn't worried about grounding them out. It would have to jump a substantial air gap to arc to any part of the frame, and I've never seen it happen, but.....

I don't know. I'm just throwing out possibilities. And again, this may not be electrical at all.

(I'm still betting on ghosts.)
1997 Valkyrie- Light Cutomization, but Too Busy Riding
1980 KZ1300- Bike's Haunted
1976 GL1000 (Yellow)- It Runs (Poorly) and Doesn't Leak (Mostly)
1974 Velosolex 3800- Better Than Walking
1972 CB750- Broke the Chain And Ate the Motor
1969 CT90- The Most Fun You Can Have on 90ccs.
1965 CA77 Dream- Needs a Full Teardown, but Complete

All advice I give is only valid until an expert corrects me.
User avatar
Lucien Harpress
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Posts: 4077
Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2011 11:41 am
Location: Michigan

Re: 1980 KZ1300 - Bike's Haunted

#793

Post by Lucien Harpress »

It's been a minute for an update on this bike, and while I have something, it's not much. As previously mentioned my igniter measured up to spec, but I always had this thought in the back of my head. I still need to insulate the primary coil connections, but the igniter was always this great unknown that always cost too much to test out a replacement.

Well, I got lucky and found a seller on Facebook letting go of a KZ1300 igniter. While still expensive, it's about half as much as the cheapest igniter I could find. So, for better or worse, I decided to pull the trigger on it. At best, it eliminates another potential problem. At worst, I spent a bunch of money for something I don't need, but at least will hold it's value.

It's going to be a bit before I get back to the big 1300. I need to get my CB750 back together, and my Honda Dream is a constant project in the back of my mind, but for certain bikes I kind of have to grab things as they come up.
1997 Valkyrie- Light Cutomization, but Too Busy Riding
1980 KZ1300- Bike's Haunted
1976 GL1000 (Yellow)- It Runs (Poorly) and Doesn't Leak (Mostly)
1974 Velosolex 3800- Better Than Walking
1972 CB750- Broke the Chain And Ate the Motor
1969 CT90- The Most Fun You Can Have on 90ccs.
1965 CA77 Dream- Needs a Full Teardown, but Complete

All advice I give is only valid until an expert corrects me.
User avatar
gltriker
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Posts: 5053
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2010 9:11 pm
Location: central NY State

Re: 1980 KZ1300 - Bike's Haunted

#794

Post by gltriker »

In consideration of the extensive repairs and component replacements you've already accomplished on this engine, this came to mind. Have the number 3 cylinder's intake and exhaust camshafts lobes been examined?
Cliff (74yrs ;) )

Keep your eyes and ears open and you'll learn something new, everyday. tumb2

New users please visit our "Shop Talk" for common tips and help: <---jdvorchak
http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/page/ST
^^^^^^^click up here^^^^^ :oldies

RE: a thorough fuel tank cleaning
"And your carbs will thank you. They no longer live down stream from a sewage plant." -gregforesi tumb2
"Can't see the paint when your looking thru the handlebars..........." -Oldewing ;)
"I'd rather Ride than Shine" -RAT tumb2 Me Too!!

Cliff

'75 GL1000 home built trike; http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=39996
October,2017 BOTM :shock: https://nakedgoldwingsclub.com/forum/page/Welcome

previous rides:
1953 H-D Servi-car, naked, 1969-1978 (serial#53G1559 committed to memory!)
1980 CB900 Custom (triked) 1997-2003 .... R.I.P.
User avatar
Lucien Harpress
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Posts: 4077
Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2011 11:41 am
Location: Michigan

Re: 1980 KZ1300 - Bike's Haunted

#795

Post by Lucien Harpress »

Yup, lobes look good. In fact, I've reason to think that the carb swap (many moons ago) actually cured a number of my cylinder-3-specific problems. My biggest issues before I put things up for a while was and idle-to-mid range problem.

Long story short, the only way to get the bike to fire consistently at idle was to richen the mixture to a point where the plugs would foul very quickly. Any leaner and the engine would start to miss. This, plus the fact I always tend to drop random cylinders (regardless of what I did) made me always wonder if I had electrical gremlins. Every other bit of the ignition system has been gone through apart from the igniter box. Since one came up at a price I'd never see again, I figured I'd at least hook me a spare. It certainly can't make things worse.

Ah well. The hope is to take another peek this summer. It's definitely overdue for some attention.
1997 Valkyrie- Light Cutomization, but Too Busy Riding
1980 KZ1300- Bike's Haunted
1976 GL1000 (Yellow)- It Runs (Poorly) and Doesn't Leak (Mostly)
1974 Velosolex 3800- Better Than Walking
1972 CB750- Broke the Chain And Ate the Motor
1969 CT90- The Most Fun You Can Have on 90ccs.
1965 CA77 Dream- Needs a Full Teardown, but Complete

All advice I give is only valid until an expert corrects me.
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