1200 engine in a 1000 chassis

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dontwantapickle
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1200 engine in a 1000 chassis

#1

Post by dontwantapickle »

FOR DISCUSSION PURPOSES ONLY

after reading threads about putting a 1200 engine in a 1000 bike, I asked myself:
"What are the actual benefits of doing this swap?"

Yeah, I totally get "more displacement" which is always good for us hotrodders,
but... at what costs?

from where I sit...
the 1000 chassis is flimsier that the 1200 ( smaller forks, etc,)
The 1000 has a 3 inches shorter wheelbase which will make the bike react quicker in the twisties,
but not tract as easily as a 1200. ( the longer wheelbase is a more stable platform ).

I'd probably consider making the swap if I was building a track bike.

The shorter gearing (3.4 vs. 2.83) is a good thing when it comes to drag racing and great for acceleration
but... if you were building a dragbike,
why wouldn't you want the longer wheelbase of the 1200?

Of course, it's your bike... do what you want to it.
but if the idea is "improvement". what does this swap actually "improve".

We all know guys put small blocks in little bitty cars all of the time, and they are totally cool,
but in the end... are they actually making their cars "better'?

I think that you get the jist of what I'm asking.

( DISCLAIMER: for all of you that have done the swap, don't go getting your panties all wadded up being offended by me asking you to explain your reasoning.
It's a legitimate question, and if you can't give a legitimate answer, please feel free to sit this thread out.)
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Lucien Harpress
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Re: 1200 engine in a 1000 chassis

#2

Post by Lucien Harpress »

I think the "more agile in the twisties" is a feature, not a bug. If you want a bike that tracks better, I agree the 1200 is a better choice. Arguably, a Valkyrie even more so.

Mostly, I think it's everyone's favorite "more power" in a way that doesn't require extensive machining or fabrication skills. And "better" is subjective. If getting a bike to be the best it can be all around, it can be said it's usually best to leave things stock (what with the weight of an entire design team behind it).

It's all about trade-offs, and what you're willing to let go in order to gain what you want.
1997 Valkyrie- Light Cutomization, but Too Busy Riding
1980 KZ1300- Bike's Haunted
1976 GL1000 (Yellow)- It Runs (Poorly) and Doesn't Leak (Mostly)
1974 Velosolex 3800- Better Than Walking
1972 CB750- Broke the Chain And Ate the Motor
1969 CT90- The Most Fun You Can Have on 90ccs.
1965 CA77 Dream- Needs a Full Teardown, but Complete

All advice I give is only valid until an expert corrects me.
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CYBORG
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Re: 1200 engine in a 1000 chassis

#3

Post by CYBORG »

Everything said is true. However, my reasoning was the improved ign., hydrolic valves, (no adjustment needed), simpler carbs to work on, oil dip stick, just to mention a few. However just changing the engine is not enough, in my opinion. I installed 1200 front fork and reinforced the swing arm. and installed a single shock in the rear. And the whole rig is lighter then the 1200. To me it translated to more riding, and less maintaining. And both the fun of making it work, and the fun of riding. But that's just me
1978 custom GL1000
1977 custom with 1200 engine
1985 gl1200
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ericheath
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Re: 1200 engine in a 1000 chassis

#4

Post by ericheath »

If I do it again, I’ll just look for a 1200 frame. In the end, I added a beefier front end, a 1200 swingarm, and a 1500 final drive. By the time you do that, you basically have a 1200 frame, with a cramped motor to work on.

Your question seems more frame oriented.
Whatever I suggest here should be given ample time for a moderator to delicately correct. I apologize in advance.
77 WING, 1200 engine with 77 heads, cams, gl1100 foot pegs, Magna V65 front end, 764A carbs, [-gone Suzuki M109 monoshock--, replaced with gl1100 shocks] gl 1200 swing arm, gl1500 final drive, wheel and rear brakes Valkyrie seat, Meanstreak tank, Sportster pipes, Power Arc ignition off crank.
77 Wing. black
83 Wing, in pieces
"Continuing education is important even if the subject matter is fairly useless (as in this case)."---Greg Foresi
redglbx
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Re: 1200 engine in a 1000 chassis

#5

Post by redglbx »

Don I guess it’s all about the “hot rod” thing, the 1200is of course bigger displacement so theoretically should make more power. The 1000 frame is lighter and smaller (less weight, more speed) which relates back to the flimsy thing. So a few years ago my plan was to put a 85-87 1200 motor in a 78 frame I have, I planned to add some gussets to improve the frame flex but was on-the-fence about adding a 1200 fork.

A lot of years ago I modeled a 1200 motor on my computer and using early 1000 heads & cams along with some highly modded early 1000 carbs it made over 120 hpower, it has great potential. Is it real ? I don’t know w/o actually building it and dynoing it. But the 1200 is a very potent motor as anyone that’s owned one knows. I was truly impressed with my 86 Sei.

On the 1000 heads & cams, are they really better ? Maybe, the 1200’s hydraulic lifters are truly an asset and a liability. I was planning on porting & polishing the 1000 heads as well as doing the cam timing and with the added displacement I could use the modded 1000 carbs that are too big for a 1000.

All just thoughts on my never done project , my 76 that I used as a test bed for a lot of my ideas seems to work well so a bigger motor should make more power, right ? But I’ll add that carbs & compression are the things that really wake a gl motor up and I have box’s of scrap carbs to prove it. Lots of different things tried there. Anyway like I said just some random thoughts.
Red 1976 oe owner
1976 LTD restored
1980 CBX , in the que, to fix the ignorant heavy handed owner
1981 CBX
1977 CB750 K7
2014 FJR OE owner, sold
1980 GL1100
1984 GL1200 naked
1969 CL350, in the que
Shadowjack
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Re: 1200 engine in a 1000 chassis

#6

Post by Shadowjack »

Based on my experience with the torque characteristics of a 1200 vs a 1000, and considering the weight difference, I swapped an 85 1200 engine into a 75 1000, thinking it would be quite a fun ride. I also swapped the forks from a CB900C and a swingarm and rear wheel from a GL1100. I thought swapping the forks might get me better brakes, but all it really did was give me a front wheel that matched the rear from the 1100. I had to dent the left frame tube a bit to get the larger 1200 rear cover in, and grind just a bit off one motor mount tab.
Several years ago, somebody who I would love to credit but have lost the info, posted a spreadsheet of ALL the Goldwing internal gear ratios, wheel and tire sizes and final drive ratios. I used this to compare all the non-standard combos and then specifically chose the 1100 final drive and 18-inch rear wheel, since a 1200 has so much more power than a 1000 and I didn't want to rev the nuts off it all the time, and I didn't want to use the 1200 rear wheel.
I used the 1200 ignition. I made dogleg pipes from the 1200 headers to some Yoshimura mufflers for some sportbike. Not real sure I like the looks, but they sound pretty good, and they're quiet for mufflers you can see right through. Cobbled some 1200 gauges together with the CB900C gauges so I had a temp gauge and an electrical tach. Not sure if the 1000 radiator is quite big enough; it seems to run warmer than it "ought" to, but that may be the gauge.
Eventually when I got it done, it "seems" better than my 1000, but it's not really a barn-burner. I like it better than my 1000 which I still have, but I no longer have a stock 1200 to directly compare it to. Using the 900C forks with the 1100 swingarm seems like it should move the center of gravity forward. I can't really tell what effect this has on the handling; not so many twisties around here. It's pretty comfortable, though.
All said and done, it wasn't really worth it to use a 1000 chassis if you don't like the 1000 rear ratio. Getting the swingarm and driveshaft changed was a huge PITA. It would cut the work in half (probably less) to use an 1100 chassis to begin with. Or search out a 1200 Standard. I've got another 1200 engine here, but I'm not seeing any dead 1100s with titles...
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dontwantapickle
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Re: 1200 engine in a 1000 chassis

#7

Post by dontwantapickle »

Excellent responses given by all.
I'm sure this thread will give useful perspective to those considering building a mix and match goldwing.

My reason for posting is that I just finished up a 1000 engine and was pondering what to do with it.
I have both a 79 gl1000 and a 81 gl1100 chassis with titles that I can use.

When building my racing bike, I considered all of the options for what I wanted to achieve,
and mathematically, the 1000 engine in the 1100 frame won out.
The bike ended up working well and did what I wanted it to do.
( the proof is in the puddin')

For this latest project, I have finally decided on doing pretty much the same thing, but building a custom street bike.
1000 engine - 1100 bike.
Greatest amount of benefits for least amount of work.

Right now I have a 84 1200 engine without a home and that 79 chassis without an engine.
but I'm not going to go thru the hassle to make them fit together.
redglbx
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Re: 1200 engine in a 1000 chassis

#8

Post by redglbx »

The 1200 standard is still the fastest 4 cyl wing in the 1/4 mile. As I said above I had intended to build a 1200 motor in the 78 chassis I have using the 85-87 1200 motor, why the 85-87 ? Because the ignition is on the front of the motor which shouldn’t require cutting/denting the frame rail to get it into the 78 frame.

But since my original thoughts on this I realized that if you use the 75-77 cams with ignition nub on the lh cam so you can use the oe style ignition, I would then remove the rear ignition on the 1100 or 84 1200 motors and make a flat plate to just cover that area.

On the 1200 vs 1000 heads and cams, the 75-77 cams are definitely the hottest cams vs the 1200 or 1100’s, the heads aren’t so clear as ports on the 1000 heads are a bit bigger than the 1200’s but the valve sizes are kind of a toss up. The main difference or detriment for going to the 1000 heads is eliminating the hydraulic lifters to improve the “rev” range , 8500rpm for the 1000 & 6500rpm for the 1200, so if your building a hot rod the 1000 heads with the 1000 cams are the way to go, but the no fuss, of those hydraulic lifters are a big plus. Just depends on what you want, there is some pretty good potential there.

Myself, I bought a 84 GL1200 standard that someone put bags & a fairing on with the intent of pulling the motor to put in my 78 but quite frankly it’s just to nice to cut up. So now I’m thinking of just pulling everything of to return it back to standard, maybe just pull the terrible Windjammer off and make it a bagger.

It’s funny because I couldn’t cut the 84 1200 up because it was so nice so I bought a 80 1100 bike to use the motor in the 78 but it’s actually nicer than the 1200, so basically between the bikes being so nice and my back issues I think I’ll just get them going with no swapping around. I think my hot rod bent has been satisfied with all the mods on my 76, and quite frankly if I feel a need for speed, I’ll just hop on my FJR 1300 which is pretty much better in every aspect,,, but then that 76 just calls to me from time to time, just something about it !

One thing I will add is that I own a 78 that has an 1100 motor in it that I helped build many years ago for the CWC that originally was super charged. After Carl Hinsey the CWC President died the bike basically disappeared for years and when it reappeared the supercharger was gone. I’ve spent a lot of time getting this bike back to roadworthy and actually bought it from the CWC. It is still a fairly potent runner, plenty of giddy-up, it has the 1100 motor with the 78 final drive and a heavily braced swingarm and quite frankly with the 16” rear wheel the rpm at 60mph is only about 300rpm higher than an all stock 78 while my 76 which has the 76 motor and 76 final drive with a 16” rear that runs 400-500rpm higher at 70mph than it did stock. By the way this bike is going back to the CWC this week where it truly belongs.

To sum this all up for a 1200 motor in a 1000 frame, it’s a “hot rod” thing, maximum displacement in the lightest chassis, the 1000 chassis should be about 100-150lbs lighter which is significant. Yes you have smaller forks and a little flimsier chassis, just depends on what you want ! The 1200 motor carry’s all the improvements to the 4cyl wing motor so you get a quieter, more powerful, more maintenance free piece, add the 75-77 1000 heads and cams and you should get a real ripper ! There’s a lot of potential there.
So anyway, I need more coffee, not telling anyone what to do here just some general ramblings, this is a hobby so just have some fun with your bike, whatever you do !
Red 1976 oe owner
1976 LTD restored
1980 CBX , in the que, to fix the ignorant heavy handed owner
1981 CBX
1977 CB750 K7
2014 FJR OE owner, sold
1980 GL1100
1984 GL1200 naked
1969 CL350, in the que
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CYBORG
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Re: 1200 engine in a 1000 chassis

#9

Post by CYBORG »

I agree. My 1200 in a 77 frame, is a bagger with clip-ons. It's my choice, and I love it.
1978 custom GL1000
1977 custom with 1200 engine
1985 gl1200
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dontwantapickle
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Re: 1200 engine in a 1000 chassis

#10

Post by dontwantapickle »

I spent a little time last night looking at parts and pondering the whole mess.
After close examination, my results remain the same.. too much work.

I've got a 79 rolling chassis and a pretty bare 76 rolling frame that I use for an engine stand.
Both have pinched down tubes (stupid crash bars) that I would have to fix. Again... too much work.

On top of all of that... I've really begun to not like the spokes. Tubeless is the way to go - IMHO.

The plan is to chuck the 1200 engine back under the workbench and finish up the 1000.
I'm not totally sure exactly what "finish" means, but as of right now,
it may include a crank driven ignition and a turbocharger.

When building a "hotrod" in todays world ...there IS a replacement for displacement.
redglbx
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Re: 1200 engine in a 1000 chassis

#11

Post by redglbx »

😁😁😱 Don, we’re gonna need pictures !
Red 1976 oe owner
1976 LTD restored
1980 CBX , in the que, to fix the ignorant heavy handed owner
1981 CBX
1977 CB750 K7
2014 FJR OE owner, sold
1980 GL1100
1984 GL1200 naked
1969 CL350, in the que
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ericheath
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Re: 1200 engine in a 1000 chassis

#12

Post by ericheath »

In regards to the “hottest cams” being the 75-77 years. I question that. It has been floated for years because the only data available is the cam lift from the manuals which show more cam lift. The 85-86 cams provide more overlap (20 degrees vs 10 degrees in the 75-77 and I think all the rest are ten degrees overlap) and the 1200 rocker arms (84-87) ratio gives its smaller cam lobe profiles virtually the same intake valve lift and greater exhaust lift.

The only advantage I see to the 1000 (or 1100) heads are 38 mm intake valves vs the 1200’s 36 mm intake valves. It has larger intake ports which may help more at WOT, but I’m not convinced of it. I think the 1200 breathes better with the smaller ports. There’s the solid lifter issue as well.

The 1200 into a 1000 frame with either set of heads feels like a rocket because of the final drive ratio. For me, I took off in second gear most of the time. It could get you into the power band quickly. Even with a slight rake and longer forks the front wheel came up easily. A longer swingarm with a 2.83 ratio final drive tamed it.
Whatever I suggest here should be given ample time for a moderator to delicately correct. I apologize in advance.
77 WING, 1200 engine with 77 heads, cams, gl1100 foot pegs, Magna V65 front end, 764A carbs, [-gone Suzuki M109 monoshock--, replaced with gl1100 shocks] gl 1200 swing arm, gl1500 final drive, wheel and rear brakes Valkyrie seat, Meanstreak tank, Sportster pipes, Power Arc ignition off crank.
77 Wing. black
83 Wing, in pieces
"Continuing education is important even if the subject matter is fairly useless (as in this case)."---Greg Foresi
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ericheath
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Re: 1200 engine in a 1000 chassis

#13

Post by ericheath »

The shop manual says the dry weight difference is 604 lbs to 723 lbs for the 1200 standard edition and it must be mostly in the forks, the swingarm assembly, and the longer frame. The 1200 motor is listed at 240 lbs, just six pounds more than the 1000.
Whatever I suggest here should be given ample time for a moderator to delicately correct. I apologize in advance.
77 WING, 1200 engine with 77 heads, cams, gl1100 foot pegs, Magna V65 front end, 764A carbs, [-gone Suzuki M109 monoshock--, replaced with gl1100 shocks] gl 1200 swing arm, gl1500 final drive, wheel and rear brakes Valkyrie seat, Meanstreak tank, Sportster pipes, Power Arc ignition off crank.
77 Wing. black
83 Wing, in pieces
"Continuing education is important even if the subject matter is fairly useless (as in this case)."---Greg Foresi
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dontwantapickle
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Re: 1200 engine in a 1000 chassis

#14

Post by dontwantapickle »

a naked 1200 weighs 120 lbs. than a 1000?
That's a lot. I wonder where they put it.
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Lucien Harpress
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Re: 1200 engine in a 1000 chassis

#15

Post by Lucien Harpress »

From owning both? My guess is a little bit of everywhere. Everything is slightly larger is nearly every dimension.

-Frame is longer, more gusseted, and a bit thicker.
-Forks are larger around, and more substantial.
-Wheels and rims are quite a bit larger. Maybe 1.5 times thicker than the GL1000. I also don't know the weight difference between spokes vs alloys.

All that stuff tends to add up. The GL1000 really feels like a CB frame modified to fit a boxer engine, and you get the impression of it's just big enough, barely. Fast forward to the 1200, and everything feels much chunkier.
1997 Valkyrie- Light Cutomization, but Too Busy Riding
1980 KZ1300- Bike's Haunted
1976 GL1000 (Yellow)- It Runs (Poorly) and Doesn't Leak (Mostly)
1974 Velosolex 3800- Better Than Walking
1972 CB750- Broke the Chain And Ate the Motor
1969 CT90- The Most Fun You Can Have on 90ccs.
1965 CA77 Dream- Needs a Full Teardown, but Complete

All advice I give is only valid until an expert corrects me.
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