78 GL1000 gears won't engage

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redsrback6
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Re: 78 GL1000 gears won't engage

#61

Post by redsrback6 »

Hey Guys,

Sorry for bringing this up... earlier in this thread I mentioned a local radiator shop used the renew process to de-rust and re-finish my tank. The drain plug was removed in the process. Perhaps it would've been best to leave the bolt in place and even coat over it permanently. Believe this is what Cliff did with POR-15. Anyway, I used Permatex High Performance 56521 with surface prep spray to seal the bolt, with original washer. This was years ago so no gas touched the tank for a long time after seal. Months ago, when I added gas to the tank, all was well at first but there was a slight seepage.

Robin has recommended Permatex Motoseal Gasket Maker 29132 which is fuel resistant, so I went out and bought some and was preparing to use it. He has been on the money with everything else. Though I'm confident I didn't over-tighten the previous attempt, I figured trying to tighten a bit would probably unseal it more. I have siphoned the tank, and syringed what little bit was left in the tubes so tank is now mostly dry but not vaporless. I've cleaned both threads back down to bare metal using permatex gasket remover, a soak in Evaporust, dremel with brass wire wheel, and cleaned with brake fluid. The drain plug hole lip (outside tank) where washer will be is also down to bare metal. I found a NOS washer on eBay, out of box/package but looks the same. Motoseal instructions say to use a small brush to coat both parts and let stand for a minute before joining using normal torque.

I really don't want to do this again so I'm reaching out to the group for input. I'd like to give this Motoseal a try, unless someone else has experience doing this, method or product. There's no info anywhere about torque but I don't think I can get my torque wrench with 19mm socket in that spot anyway. Also, this time of year my garage is heated but in the upper 50's to 60. I could possibly get it into the 60's, any case I can't wait for it to warm up. Can also use a shop light for heat.

I can't imagine the bolt and washer alone without sealant would work.

Please lemme know any thoughts, especially success cases.
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Sidecar Bob
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Re: 78 GL1000 gears won't engage

#62

Post by Sidecar Bob »

I don't know about the Motoseal but when I had my 1000 I drained the tank for storage every year via the drain screw and just put it back in and tightened until it felt tight afterward and I don't recall it ever leaking a drop.
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redsrback6
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Re: 78 GL1000 gears won't engage

#63

Post by redsrback6 »

Thanks Bob!! That is very interesting, and you are not the first I've seen to mention it. Very well may be worth a test, at least I wouldn't need to re-clean the threads.
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Re: 78 GL1000 gears won't engage

#64

Post by redsrback6 »

Sorry if the image displays upside down.
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redsrback6
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Re: 78 GL1000 gears won't engage

#65

Post by redsrback6 »

Hey Bob, PID, or anyone else...

My coolant bypass port was seeping coolant. Noticed a drop of coolant under the bike one day then noticed a small pool on top of the left head and traced it to the bypass. I have removed the radiator, shroud, and the carbs in order to get at the area. The bypass collar and o-ring seal sits below the thermostat housing on the left side. All the bolts seemed tight when I removed them. Oddly enough the o-ring which I expected was the problem, looked fine. The old metal collar has a join or seam in it and to me it looks like somebody may have wiggled the thermostat off at some point because the collar is ever so slightly bent at the seam.

I bought all new o-rings for the bypass and tubes, and found a NOS collar on ebay. This new collar is OEM came in Honda packet with part number and looks identical to my old except it doesn't have the seam. I have the thermostat, tubes, and bypass back together with bolts as finger-tighted as I could get them.

Honda manuals don't say anything about the required torque of the 6mm bolts. In researching, it looks like 87-120 in-lbs may be the range.

Curious if anyone has any thoughts on the torque values. Also, has anyone had any experiences with this bypass leaking? Is there any chance the bolts can be over or under-tightened, leading to a leak? I've been bouncing this off Cliff who thought it may be worth posting to the forum.

Thank You!
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Sidecar Bob
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Re: 78 GL1000 gears won't engage

#66

Post by Sidecar Bob »

There should be a standard torque values chart somewhere near the front of the FSM that gives the recommended range of torque values for the most common fastener sizes. It is usually recommended to stay in the bottom half of the recommended range. I generally use about 90 inch pounds for M6.
Mr. Honda ('83 GL1100/Dnepr) summer How a motorcycle evolves thread
The Famous Eccles ('84 CX650EI/VeloUral) winter Never Ending Build (CX500forum)
Click: Colour schematics for all GL1000 & GL1100 and GL1200 standard models plus instructions on how to download the full size version
"A guy with two sidecars can't be all bad." - Cookie
Another guy with two sidecars..... Hmmmm... must be something to that....
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Re: 78 GL1000 gears won't engage

#67

Post by Whiskerfish »

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Sidecar Bob
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Re: 78 GL1000 gears won't engage

#68

Post by Sidecar Bob »

It occurs to me that the chart may be somewhat confusing. By definition a bolt is something that screws into a nut and a screw is something that screws into anything that is not a nut (I like to think of them as the sort of Schrodinger's fasteners: until you screw one into something it has an equal chance of being a screw or a bolt).
This means that the ones that screw into the engine cases are technically screws even though they have flange heads.

Since Honda only specified torque values for 5mm and 6mm "screws" I have a feeling that their intent was for those specs to apply to items like sheet metal screws and all of the other bolts/screws should be treated as bolts whichever way they are used.
Mr. Honda ('83 GL1100/Dnepr) summer How a motorcycle evolves thread
The Famous Eccles ('84 CX650EI/VeloUral) winter Never Ending Build (CX500forum)
Click: Colour schematics for all GL1000 & GL1100 and GL1200 standard models plus instructions on how to download the full size version
"A guy with two sidecars can't be all bad." - Cookie
Another guy with two sidecars..... Hmmmm... must be something to that....
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Re: 78 GL1000 gears won't engage

#69

Post by redsrback6 »

Bob, Whisker - Appreciate this information. You guys have all the answers!
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Re: 78 GL1000 gears won't engage

#70

Post by Shadowjack »

Using a torque wrench is all well and good, but these values are down in the mud for a tool the average person has on hand. I tighten my 6mm fasteners, whatever you want to call them, with a short 10mm wrench or 1/4" breaker using wrist action only, and I don't pull very hard. Everyone should already be aware of the soft Honda fasteners, so more is less. Or, if you're worried about it coming loose, "tighten till you hear it crack, then back off a quarter turn".😁
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Sidecar Bob
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Re: 78 GL1000 gears won't engage

#71

Post by Sidecar Bob »

Or invest in a 1/4" drive torque wrench so you can do it properly. many of the M6 screws on these bikes attach covers so they need to be tightened uniformly to prevent distorting the cover and causing leaks.

As for "soft Honda fasteners", I've never broken one when torquing it properly. If you are breaking them perhaps your technique is at fault.
Mr. Honda ('83 GL1100/Dnepr) summer How a motorcycle evolves thread
The Famous Eccles ('84 CX650EI/VeloUral) winter Never Ending Build (CX500forum)
Click: Colour schematics for all GL1000 & GL1100 and GL1200 standard models plus instructions on how to download the full size version
"A guy with two sidecars can't be all bad." - Cookie
Another guy with two sidecars..... Hmmmm... must be something to that....
redsrback6
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Re: 78 GL1000 gears won't engage

#72

Post by redsrback6 »

Thanks Jack, Bob! Points taken. Even when just tightening by hand with 10mm deep socket I made sure to keep as level as possible working my way around the bolts little by little. Will tighten this down today using your suggestions. All this makes me wish I'd taken time to see if this bypass collar touches top and bottom (thermostat and block) with no o-ring, Cliff's suggestion. Perhaps over tightening (or uneven) could've had something to do with the slight bend of the collar.
redsrback6
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Re: 78 GL1000 gears won't engage

#73

Post by redsrback6 »

Also, just an FYI on the fuel tank... I did try to tighten without any kind of sealant but there was still some slight seepage. As you guys also point out, I may have been a bit too light in tightening with wrench, keeping it in my fingers. So worried about stripping and I could not get my torque wrench on it, in the bike.

Good or bad... I decided to try some Permatex Permashield a non-setting flange seal supposed to be same as Hylomar. Actually have Hylomar but decided to get a fresh tube of the Permatex. This time I was more forceful with grip so I believe I got it tighter, hopefully will do the trick. Stuff supposed to be fuel resistant will see. Not yet put any gas back in the tank since I decided to wait a bit and moved on to the coolant. But again, I bet I just didn't quite get it tight enough the first time.

Let you guys know how they turn out.
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Re: 78 GL1000 gears won't engage

#74

Post by gltriker »

redsrback6 wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 11:33 am Thanks Jack, Bob! Points taken. Even when just tightening by hand with 10mm deep socket I made sure to keep as level as possible working my way around the bolts little by little. Will tighten this down today using your suggestions. All this makes me wish I'd taken time to see if this bypass collar touches top and bottom (thermostat and block) with no o-ring, Cliff's suggestion. Perhaps over tightening (or uneven) could've had something to do with the slight bend of the collar.
Not too late now to go back and confirm the collar isn't too long. ;)
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Re: 78 GL1000 gears won't engage

#75

Post by Fred Camper »

I did use an oil plug sealing washer on mine last time it seeped after a drain event. No more gas smell. It never weeped enough to drip, just enough so I could smell it until I added the washer.
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