78 GL1000 gears won't engage

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redsrback6
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Re: 78 GL1000 gears won't engage

#16

Post by redsrback6 »

New drain plugs ordered from Randakk though at this point only gonna replace the one leaking. Should have on Wednesday. Just hope I don't run into trouble removing the old.
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Re: 78 GL1000 gears won't engage

#17

Post by robin1731 »

redsrback6 wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 12:57 am New drain plugs ordered from Randakk though at this point only gonna replace the one leaking. Should have on Wednesday. Just hope I don't run into trouble removing the old.
The drain plug itself is not what seals the bowls. There is an 0-ring on there. I rarely need to replace the drain screws and that is only when a PO has buggered up the head so bad a screwdriver just won't stay engaged.

The reason the screw probably only comes out part way then stops is from the old gas that was in there. Turns to gel and gets on the end of the threads. Heat helps a lot. But I'd be very cautious doing that with carbs on the bike. IMO your carbs should come off for a good cleaning at least if not a full rebuild.

Oh, and you should get in the practice of turning the fuel valve off on any motorcycle that has an off position. ;)
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Re: 78 GL1000 gears won't engage

#18

Post by redsrback6 »

Thanks Robin, you are probably correct with gunk on the threads that makes sense but also wonder how long the screws and o-rings have been in place. I was thinking the screws were fused to the o-rings originally because though they turned for me a bit you could see there was some elasticity. Gum on the threads probably more the cause. I've come this far so I'm gonna replace the one if I can and see where it gets me. Carbs likely do need cleaned again.
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Re: 78 GL1000 gears won't engage

#19

Post by redsrback6 »

Replaced the o-ring along with new screw to be safe and save a bit of time. No leaks at this time. Still no luck starting though but I didn't quite follow doctor orders. Tomorrow the 10-20. Maybe gas just hasn't made the front carbs yet.
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Re: 78 GL1000 gears won't engage

#20

Post by redsrback6 »

Update: Went ahead and drained the other 3 bowls and replaced the o-rings w/screws. All 4 bowls were filled with fuel, so the pump isn't a concern, for now anyway. Tank is nearly full so I'm sure gravity is helping. Also, while moving the plug wires out of the way I went ahead and checked the plugs to make sure all were tight. #1 was loose for some reason so I tightened it down. This might've been working against during first attempts. The motor now turns over but only for maybe a second, and not every time. I realize the carbs need cleaning since gas was left in it, but still want to get this thing running so I can hopefully get the gears to mesh. I had purchased the recommended Yuasa battery though it isn't AGM like I had years back. It doesn't take a lot to wear it down but really thought it to be adequate. Yes, often the first crank is best. Stator can't be an issue since it has been in a while now but almost 0 miles on it. If it matters, I've never removed the condenser, as far as I know it is original. Also need to point out that while the bike was sitting, I noticed some white corrosion (assumed anyway) around the battery housing and condenser. Other than some dust I've always kept this bike very clean, and the battery was not left in it while idle. Just curious if I should replace this condenser with a NOS, and could it in any way keep the motor from catching?
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Re: 78 GL1000 gears won't engage

#21

Post by redsrback6 »

Reminder several months ago I'd used a couple squirts of MMO and a couple shots of Stabil fogging oil to try lubricating the cylinders. Most of the excess came out as I manually rotated, and over time as it sat while I worked on other stuff. Also changed the oil well after that. In case it helps I might remove the plugs (new) to wipe them down.
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Re: 78 GL1000 gears won't engage

#22

Post by gltriker »

redsrback6 wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 10:24 am Update: Went ahead and drained the other 3 bowls and replaced the o-rings w/screws. All 4 bowls were filled with fuel, so the pump isn't a concern, for now anyway. Tank is nearly full so I'm sure gravity is helping. Also, while moving the plug wires out of the way I went ahead and checked the plugs to make sure all were tight. #1 was loose for some reason so I tightened it down. This might've been working against during first attempts. The motor now turns over but only for maybe a second, and not every time. I realize the carbs need cleaning since gas was left in it, but still want to get this thing running so I can hopefully get the gears to mesh. I had purchased the recommended Yuasa battery though it isn't AGM like I had years back. It doesn't take a lot to wear it down but really thought it to be adequate. Yes, often the first crank is best. Stator can't be an issue since it has been in a while now but almost 0 miles on it. If it matters, I've never removed the condenser, as far as I know it is original. Also need to point out that while the bike was sitting, I noticed some white corrosion (assumed anyway) around the battery housing and condenser. Other than some dust I've always kept this bike very clean, and the battery was not left in it while idle. Just curious if I should replace this condenser with a NOS, and could it in any way keep the motor from catching?
The body of the condenser, itself, requires a clean uninterrupted path to ground in order for the ignition circuit to work correctly. Randakk used to offer a supplemental ground wire assembly in his catalog, but no longer. Easy enough to manufacture one. read this-
https://www.randakksblog.com/gl1000-con ... /#more-610
and-
https://www.randakksblog.com/wp-content ... denser.pdf

I don't see any mention of having physically checked for spark at the business end of each of the 4 removed spark plugs.
do this> remove all 4 spark plugs from their places in the cylinder head. Reinsert each spark plug into its respective connection. Lay all 4 spark plugs against the cylinder head .

Before cranking the engine over.
Be 100% positive there isn't any gasoline in each of the 4 cylinders which could be ejected out of the now opened spark plug hole and become a torch if ignited by a spark.

Set the OFF/RUN/OFF handlebar switch at the RUN position.
Cliff (74yrs ;) )

Keep your eyes and ears open and you'll learn something new, everyday. tumb2

New users please visit our "Shop Talk" for common tips and help: <---jdvorchak
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^^^^^^^click up here^^^^^ :oldies

RE: a thorough fuel tank cleaning
"And your carbs will thank you. They no longer live down stream from a sewage plant." -gregforesi tumb2
"Can't see the paint when your looking thru the handlebars..........." -Oldewing ;)
"I'd rather Ride than Shine" -RAT tumb2 Me Too!!

Cliff

'75 GL1000 home built trike; http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=39996
October,2017 BOTM :shock: https://nakedgoldwingsclub.com/forum/page/Welcome

previous rides:
1953 H-D Servi-car, naked, 1969-1978 (serial#53G1559 committed to memory!)
1980 CB900 Custom (triked) 1997-2003 .... R.I.P.
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Sidecar Bob
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Re: 78 GL1000 gears won't engage

#23

Post by Sidecar Bob »

Note that the valve covers are isolated from ground so you won't see spark by laying the plugs on them so make sure the plugs are on the actual heads like Cliff said.

Several decades ago I chased an ignition problem on a bike I had (not a 'Wing but similar points ignition and coil setup). Sometimes I would be riding along and suddenly it would feel like I was running out of gas and if I coasted to the side of the road it would usually start again right away. Other times it would refuse to start until we pushed it around a parking lot foe 20 minutes, then it would suddenly start working like normal. The problem eventually turned out to be a bad condenser and after I replaced it the engine started and ran reliably.

The condensers should be replaced every time you replace the points so if you haven't they could be the problem.
BTW, you don't have to spend the big $ on the original two condenser assembly. A couple of generic automotive condensers will do just fine and cost a lot less (the last time I checked was over a decade ago but I paid about $3.50 each for automotive ones and Honda wanted almost $30 for the original assembly)
Mr. Honda ('83 GL1100/Dnepr) summer How a motorcycle evolves thread
The Famous Eccles ('84 CX650EI/VeloUral) winter Never Ending Build (CX500forum)
Click: Colour schematics for all GL1000 & GL1100 and GL1200 standard models plus instructions on how to download the full size version
"A guy with two sidecars can't be all bad." - Cookie
Another guy with two sidecars..... Hmmmm... must be something to that....
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Re: 78 GL1000 gears won't engage

#24

Post by redsrback6 »

Cliff and Bob,

Appreciate you guys. Per your suggestion I went ahead and tested for spark. To get a better view and avoid separating the plugs from the rubber boot pairs I didn't ground all 4 at the same time if that matters, hopefully it doesn't. I grounded 1 and 2, then 3 and 4 together and turned out the lights in garage. All 4 do have spark. I also did end-to-end coil/wire tests and registered 26.3 for 1 and 2, followed by 25.7 for 3 and 4. So both seem a bit high but hopefully within range based on a YouTube I watched. Also hoping this gets me out of disconnecting and testing the coils separately.

I've not tested the resistor but looks like both wires connect on the right side so I could probably disconnect it if needed.

Concerning the condenser, again I mainly asked about it because I recall a little bit of white powdery substance around parts of the battery housing when I began putting back together months ago. It was not there several years ago when taken apart to fix the tank. Battery had long been out of the bike, but condenser was still mounted.

Yes, the points were replaced new years ago same time as the stator. The bike has run since then but only for few minutes, before I found the problem with the tank. Looks like a condenser is easy to get on eBay if I need to go that route.

Btw I did properly clean the plugs while I had them out, then tried starting again this morning but still no luck. Seems further away from starting than it did last week when I was working with it more. Times I get frustrated pushing the choke back in and just give the throttle a slight twist but still no luck.

For what it's worth in my two weeks of trying to turn this thing over there have been 3 backfires, most likely when I've tried to give it some gas with the throttle.

Getting to the point I may need to turn this over to someone else.
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Re: 78 GL1000 gears won't engage

#25

Post by gltriker »

Respectfully speaking to you, in order to get this engine running well again and continue with this reawakening project.
5 years of sitting with old gasoline in the fuel bowls. The carburetors need to be removed and completely gone through.
There are 3 removable fuel metering jets that have been partially or completely restricted, in each of the 4 carburetors.
The fuel bowls must be removed first to expose them for servicing.
Pistol Pete would agree. His work needs to be made whole again. ;)

This is an old NIKE commercial advisement ... Just Do It. tumb2
Cliff (74yrs ;) )

Keep your eyes and ears open and you'll learn something new, everyday. tumb2

New users please visit our "Shop Talk" for common tips and help: <---jdvorchak
http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/page/ST
^^^^^^^click up here^^^^^ :oldies

RE: a thorough fuel tank cleaning
"And your carbs will thank you. They no longer live down stream from a sewage plant." -gregforesi tumb2
"Can't see the paint when your looking thru the handlebars..........." -Oldewing ;)
"I'd rather Ride than Shine" -RAT tumb2 Me Too!!

Cliff

'75 GL1000 home built trike; http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=39996
October,2017 BOTM :shock: https://nakedgoldwingsclub.com/forum/page/Welcome

previous rides:
1953 H-D Servi-car, naked, 1969-1978 (serial#53G1559 committed to memory!)
1980 CB900 Custom (triked) 1997-2003 .... R.I.P.
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Re: 78 GL1000 gears won't engage

#26

Post by redsrback6 »

Cliff/All,

Sorry for the time lapse. Took your advice and sent my carbs to Robin1731 who rebuilt them, did a great job. They look beautiful! So much appreciate him taking me in on short notice, and he had the carbs back to me in less than a week! No doubt this needed done.

Unfortunately, it hasn't solved my problem of not being able to get this bike started. I've tried several times today after putting the carbs back in but no luck, each session consisting of approx. 5-6 cranks for at least 5 seconds each with cool-down gaps in between, and full choke. Actually the 3rd attempt I only tried a couple cranks. Each session seems to sound and feel a tiny bit more positive than the previous.

Again, I'm getting spark all 4 plugs, and all 4 bowls are getting fuel. I drained them a couple times before Rob did the rebuild, each contained a couple of ounces. Since I'd already purchased a new fuel pump but never installed it, and I'm out of other ideas, my next step is to go ahead and replace the pump. I will also check the fuel flow from the pump both free flow and during crank before removing the old pump. Original thinking was, as long as fuel is getting to the carbs that it would at least start, even if it sputters and dies indicating a possible pump issue. Perhaps a good continuous pressure is needed for the carbs to perform IDK. Again, the filter is also new. Tank is about 3/4 full.

Only other thought mentioned before is the condenser. I think I'll go ahead and get another NOS off e-bay and swap that out after the pump.

Neither have any effect I'll probably let a local mechanic take a crack at it.
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Re: 78 GL1000 gears won't engage

#27

Post by gltriker »

redsrback6 wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 10:59 pm Cliff/All,

Sorry for the time lapse. Took your advice and sent my carbs to Robin1731 who rebuilt them, did a great job. They look beautiful! So much appreciate him taking me in on short notice, and he had the carbs back to me in less than a week! No doubt this needed done.

Unfortunately, it hasn't solved my problem of not being able to get this bike started. I've tried several times today after putting the carbs back in but no luck, each session consisting of approx. 5-6 cranks for at least 5 seconds each with cool-down gaps in between, and full choke. Actually the 3rd attempt I only tried a couple cranks. Each session seems to sound and feel a tiny bit more positive than the previous. New orings were installed between the intake elbows and intake ports? I have to verify with you all 4 cylinders do have at least 140-150 psi cranking compression readings, too. Is this correct?

Again, I'm getting spark all 4 plugs, and all 4 bowls are getting fuel. I drained them a couple times before Rob did the rebuild, each contained a couple of ounces. Since I'd already purchased a new fuel pump but never installed it, and I'm out of other ideas, my next step is to go ahead and replace the pump. I will also check the fuel flow from the pump both free flow and during crank before removing the old pump. Original thinking was, as long as fuel is getting to the carbs that it would at least start, even if it sputters and dies indicating a possible pump issue. Perhaps a good continuous pressure is needed for the carbs to perform IDK. Again, the filter is also new. Tank is about 3/4 full.

Only other thought mentioned before is the condenser. I think I'll go ahead and get another NOS off e-bay and swap that out after the pump. Remember my advisement to add, at least temporarily, a dedicated ground path jumper wire to directly contact the condenser's case. ALSO..Double check the off/run/off engine control switch is still set at the run position

Neither have any effect I'll probably let a local mechanic take a crack at it. Don't you dare! lolol
fuel pump testing information tumb2
viewtopic.php?p=453019#p453019
Cliff (74yrs ;) )

Keep your eyes and ears open and you'll learn something new, everyday. tumb2

New users please visit our "Shop Talk" for common tips and help: <---jdvorchak
http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/page/ST
^^^^^^^click up here^^^^^ :oldies

RE: a thorough fuel tank cleaning
"And your carbs will thank you. They no longer live down stream from a sewage plant." -gregforesi tumb2
"Can't see the paint when your looking thru the handlebars..........." -Oldewing ;)
"I'd rather Ride than Shine" -RAT tumb2 Me Too!!

Cliff

'75 GL1000 home built trike; http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=39996
October,2017 BOTM :shock: https://nakedgoldwingsclub.com/forum/page/Welcome

previous rides:
1953 H-D Servi-car, naked, 1969-1978 (serial#53G1559 committed to memory!)
1980 CB900 Custom (triked) 1997-2003 .... R.I.P.
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Re: 78 GL1000 gears won't engage

#28

Post by Sidecar Bob »

For an engine to start you need fuel, spark and compression BUT the spark has to happen at the right time. I'm wondering if you could have somehow connected the plugs to the wrong coils or something like that during the time since it last ran?
Mr. Honda ('83 GL1100/Dnepr) summer How a motorcycle evolves thread
The Famous Eccles ('84 CX650EI/VeloUral) winter Never Ending Build (CX500forum)
Click: Colour schematics for all GL1000 & GL1100 and GL1200 standard models plus instructions on how to download the full size version
"A guy with two sidecars can't be all bad." - Cookie
Another guy with two sidecars..... Hmmmm... must be something to that....
redsrback6
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Re: 78 GL1000 gears won't engage

#29

Post by redsrback6 »

Hey Bob, appreciate your tips very much. No, the plugs/wires were never disconnected from the coils, and the rubber sleeve couplings (suppressor seals) have never been removed from the plug boots. Wires are also still numbered, don't know if the stickered numbers are original or if previous owner did that. Darn good thought but I'm confident the plugs/wires are correct.

Cliff, all you guys are above and beyond with the help you provide! Very much appreciate your encouragement to stick with it. Good or bad, I'm an IT guy not a mechanic obviously. NEVER did I expect such a complex motorcycle. I was ridiculously careful with those o-ring seals for the elbows. Working alone you'd laugh at how I went about installing the carbs. They've been tightened to 9 ft-lbs. Measuring pressure is not in my toolbox so I'll need to go buy me a gage to do that, will do. Will also hook up the ground wire.

Thanks!
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Re: 78 GL1000 gears won't engage

#30

Post by gltriker »

Assuming the fuel pump is delivering fuel to the carburetors presently, you may be finding gasoline is present in the fuel bowls when their drain screws are opened, but there may not be enough volume present to allow the engine to run.
Actually takes longer than most folks would expect to fill the fuel bowls sufficiently to even start the engine.

Try cranking and starting the engine with this procedure:

*Roll the throttle part way open and pull the choke button all the way out. Then release the throttle. Performing that task will set the high idle engine speed to approximately 3,000rpm, as well. Make sure the engine control switch (aka, kill) is set at its RUN position.
note: You may have to hold the throttle to prevent it from creeping closed while you are attempting to start and run the engine.

*Crank the starter 10-15 seconds each time, Let the starter motor cool down for 2 minutes. Crank again for 10-15 seconds. If necessary, repeat the procedure.
When the engine finally attempts to start and run, don't immediately touch the choke button. The choke shutters are spring loaded and will open a certain number of degrees themselves to prevent all cylinders from being excessively fueled upon initial start up. Push the the choke button in just far enough to take the now successfully running engine off the high idle speed throttle set.

*Be patient. These engines warm up slowly. Modulate the choke button as needed to keep the engine running. Watch the temperature gauge slowly rise. Throttle response is sluggish until the engine is warmed up. Remember, the carburetors are correctly idle speed synchronized with the engine idling at Full Operating Temperature.
Last edited by gltriker on Tue Oct 11, 2022 8:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Cliff (74yrs ;) )

Keep your eyes and ears open and you'll learn something new, everyday. tumb2

New users please visit our "Shop Talk" for common tips and help: <---jdvorchak
http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/page/ST
^^^^^^^click up here^^^^^ :oldies

RE: a thorough fuel tank cleaning
"And your carbs will thank you. They no longer live down stream from a sewage plant." -gregforesi tumb2
"Can't see the paint when your looking thru the handlebars..........." -Oldewing ;)
"I'd rather Ride than Shine" -RAT tumb2 Me Too!!

Cliff

'75 GL1000 home built trike; http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=39996
October,2017 BOTM :shock: https://nakedgoldwingsclub.com/forum/page/Welcome

previous rides:
1953 H-D Servi-car, naked, 1969-1978 (serial#53G1559 committed to memory!)
1980 CB900 Custom (triked) 1997-2003 .... R.I.P.
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