Cylinders dropping out

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Lucien Harpress
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Re: Cylinders dropping out

#16

Post by Lucien Harpress »

Yup. Mostly just going to echo what everyone else has already brought up, plus my own experiences.

-Easiest way to determine fuel vs spark issue is to see what's affected. As said, coils are paired front and back. Front or rear two cylinders acting up? Probably spark. Left or right two? Something else.

-Check the easy stuff first. Valves set good? (Probably, but easy to check). Ignition spot on?

Moving to carbs...

-The metal-on-metal slides are what make 1000 carbs particularly goofy. If they get the slightest bit sticky they can mess with both midrange running and throttle response. I had a very similar issue to yours, and slides were the cause. It never hurts to give them special attention.

-Should be obvious, but these carbs hate dirt. Any of it. If you're unsure, a full clean can't hurt.

-As stated, one of the emulsion tubes has what looks like a screw slot. This is NOT for a screwdriver. The tower that it's in has two small ports for the idle jet. The openings need to line up so fuel can get from one side to the other.

-My idle mix screws are set at 3 turns out and runs great. Some bikes are picky about this. The 1000 doesn't seem to be one of them. Set em at 3 turns out and forget about them.

Good luck. There's a lot to these carbs, but they aren't that bad once you can wrap your head around some of the quirks.
1997 Valkyrie- Light Cutomization, but Too Busy Riding
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1976 GL1000 (Yellow)- It Runs (Poorly) and Doesn't Leak (Mostly)
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1972 CB750- Broke the Chain And Ate the Motor
1969 CT90- The Most Fun You Can Have on 90ccs.
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Re: Cylinders dropping out

#17

Post by Koboldwrangler »

Lucien Harpress wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 2:03 pm Yup. Mostly just going to echo what everyone else has already brought up, plus my own experiences.

-Easiest way to determine fuel vs spark issue is to see what's affected. As said, coils are paired front and back. Front or rear two cylinders acting up? Probably spark. Left or right two? Something else.

-Check the easy stuff first. Valves set good? (Probably, but easy to check). Ignition spot on?
How do I determine if the cylinders are acting up while its idling? Just by pulling the plugs and seeing how it responds?

When I set valves last it was either .005 or .006. I do remember reading about how they should be set on the high side of the tolerance when I did them last.

Moving to carbs...

-The metal-on-metal slides are what make 1000 carbs particularly goofy. If they get the slightest bit sticky they can mess with both midrange running and throttle response. I had a very similar issue to yours, and slides were the cause. It never hurts to give them special attention.

-Should be obvious, but these carbs hate dirt. Any of it. If you're unsure, a full clean can't hurt.

-As stated, one of the emulsion tubes has what looks like a screw slot. This is NOT for a screwdriver. The tower that it's in has two small ports for the idle jet. The openings need to line up so fuel can get from one side to the other.
Ill check them tonight. I'm fairly certain theyre fine as when I did the rebuild not but 3 months ago, I made sure they moved buttery smooth, but again, Ill check. As of right now, throttle response seems fine, and so does midrange.
-My idle mix screws are set at 3 turns out and runs great. Some bikes are picky about this. The 1000 doesn't seem to be one of them. Set em at 3 turns out and forget about them.

Good luck. There's a lot to these carbs, but they aren't that bad once you can wrap your head around some of the quirks.
I'll set them at 3 turns tonight and see how it does when I make the video.

I just had the bowls off last night to change the primary main jet o-rings I wasnt happy with when i first did the install thinking that was the issue, but it made no difference with the issues. Bowls were also free of any dirt.

When I did the rebuild, I also made sure to line up the slots with the holes in the towers. I didnt know it at the time, but I kinda figured thats how it should be since the slot lined up perfectly with the holes.

I think on the agenda for tonight is:

Check slides
Set idle screw to 3 turns
Check plugs
Swap coils sides
Video of it idling, pulling plugs, and maybe driving
Maybe retap fuel bowls for 8-32 to repair stripped holes

If theres anything else I should do, let me know.
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Lucien Harpress
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Re: Cylinders dropping out

#18

Post by Lucien Harpress »

Valves, you'd have to double check the manual. I can't remember at the moment.

As far as checking your problem cylinders? Others have different methods, but yeah, my go-to is pulling plug wires. I've noticed my 1000 runs deceptively smooth on 3 cylinders, so "pulling plug wires" is still my go-to. No change? She's (probably) dead. If the engine dies? That one's probably fine.

As far as sync goes, that's last check always. You have to be sure all 4 carbs CAN pull their weight, then you sync them so they pull their weight equally.

Again, good luck.
1997 Valkyrie- Light Cutomization, but Too Busy Riding
1980 KZ1300- Bike's Haunted
1976 GL1000 (Yellow)- It Runs (Poorly) and Doesn't Leak (Mostly)
1974 Velosolex 3800- Better Than Walking
1972 CB750- Broke the Chain And Ate the Motor
1969 CT90- The Most Fun You Can Have on 90ccs.
1965 CA77 Dream- Needs a Full Teardown, but Complete

All advice I give is only valid until an expert corrects me.
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Re: Cylinders dropping out

#19

Post by Whiskerfish »

You can try the idle drop procedure. By the book it only applies to the EC carbs but can be used as a troubleshooting tool on all of them. A good running engine will idle on 3 quite nicely but you should be able to hear the difference when you close a mix screw. If not then that jug is not firing at idle. https://ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php ... 26#p453009

you can also use an IR gun or a spray bottle on the headers to see a difference in the heat
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Re: Cylinders dropping out

#20

Post by Koboldwrangler »

Small update. Heres how things went

First things first, I removed the boot holders on each side so I could individually remove each plug boot. Starting cold, the bike seemed like it was idling on three cylinders. Pulling each boot showed that the front right cylinder not firing. Huh, odd, I thought the issue was on the left side...maybe its just an oddity of the bike warming up.

Decided to take the bike around the block to warm it up. About half way through the ride, with the temp needle creeping into the half mark, I pulled over and started pulling boots. This time, pulling the front right and front left boot resulted in minimal change to the idle, whereas pulling either rear two boots resulted in the engine basically falling on its face and almost stalling. Cool, seems like an ignition issue! .....

Get back home, put it on its side stand, and pulled plugs again. Now, pulling either left front or left rear plug boot results in minimal change to the idle, pulling both left boots at the same time causes the idle to dip really bad, and pulling either right front or right rear boots causes the same idle dip. Seems like now the left bank are "weak".

Hmmm....I'll try swapping coils wires and see what it does. Welp, thats not good. Both coils are cracked. Seeing as right now my issues are contained to mainly the left side, I dont think this is the cause, but it does need to be addressed. Also, switching the coils and leads made no difference in the idle or cylinder dropping out.

Did a compression test. All 4 cylinders are sitting around 150psi.

Heres a pic of the plugs. The right plugs in my hand are from the front, and the cleaner ones are the rear. By the looks of it the super clean one, which is front the rear left, isnt pulling its weight. Odd that the rear right plug is also kinda clean. I havent noticed any issues with it. I dont think im loosing coolant, so I doubt this is a head gasket issue.

I still need to pull the carbs and give them a once over and fix the stripped screws.

I am leaning towards this being a fuel issue...
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Shadowjack
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Re: Cylinders dropping out

#21

Post by Shadowjack »

The dark ones aren't firing very well, but the clean ones are, assuming they're getting gas.
I once chased an ignition problem on an old V8 for months. Didn't matter which plug wire I pulled, it ran the same (poorly). Eventually I changed the coil in desperation, and felt stupid after.
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Re: Cylinders dropping out

#22

Post by cfairweather »

IMHO, if you have the money and want the best way to fix the float bowl screws, get a Time-Sert kit. They are expensive. If you want a cheap solution you can use Helicoil or get inserts at your local hardware store. I think you have a clogged idle circuit on one of the carbs. Fixing the electronic side of thigs is not very expensive. You need to eliminate the ballast resistor and condensers by installing new coils and an electronic ignition. Check these out:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/313934509658?h ... BM4u2rstdg

https://www.ebay.com/itm/373360367499?h ... BM7P7Gstdg

Instructions on how to install these:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=77232
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=77231
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Re: Cylinders dropping out

#23

Post by Whiskerfish »

If you have a multi meter that is the easiest way to check the coils and wires. Read resistance from # 1 Cap to # 2 cap and then from 3 to 4. Should be about 14,000 ohms. Cracked coils are not always bad when dry but most often do show up when riding in the wet.
"Agreement is not a requirement for Respect" CDR Michael Smith USN (Ret) 2017
"The book is wrong, this whole Conclusion is Fallacious" River Tam
2008 GL1800 IIIA "TH3DOG"
1975/6/7/8/9 Arthur Fulmer Dressed Road bike
1975 Naked Noisy and Nasty in town bike
and a whole garage full of possibilities!!

Psst. oh and by the way CHANGE YOUR BELTS!!!!
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ericheath
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Re: Cylinders dropping out

#24

Post by ericheath »

A quick and easy test for excess fuel in those front cylinders is to back the petcock down. It allows high fuel level(s) to fall back to normal. Turn the petcock off after running a bit. In about a minute the bike will suddenly idle great as the fuel levels get correct before stalling out from a lack of fuel. You can usually tweak the petcock to where the fuel is just right to feed all four and it runs smoothly.

That would indicate whether it’s too much fuel or if you should focus on ignition.
Last edited by ericheath on Sat Aug 20, 2022 8:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Whatever I suggest here should be given ample time for a moderator to delicately correct. I apologize in advance.
77 WING, 1200 engine with 77 heads, cams, gl1100 foot pegs, Magna V65 front end, 764A carbs, [-gone Suzuki M109 monoshock--, replaced with gl1100 shocks] gl 1200 swing arm, gl1500 final drive, wheel and rear brakes Valkyrie seat, Meanstreak tank, Sportster pipes, Power Arc ignition off crank.
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Re: Cylinders dropping out

#25

Post by redglbx »

I had my doubts about the 3 turns out on the idle mix screws initially but now I’m a convert, just do it ! I used to do the idle drop method which is a bit more involved but truthfully just setting them 3 turns out seems to work better.

One thing I haven’t seen mentioned is to check the spark plug caps that they ohm at less than 5k ohms across them. Whiskerfish’s method of checking across a pair set for 14k is a good start but I would check the individual plug caps if whiskers method shows any doubt. A lot of weird run issues have been traced to the plug caps for me.

The slides should have zero to do with an idle issue and they really don’t come into play until 2200rpm and above, but as said they need to move very freely, do not sand or buff them or the caps, you’ll just increase the clearances and reduce the vacuum signal due to allowing more leakage.

On the fuel bowls, I’ve bought a bunch of heli-coils, nut zerks as stripped float bowl threads seem to be the norm on these old bikes anymore. So I just replace them as a matter of routine, eBay has some really inexpensive “kits” anymore.

Cracked coils,,, yes they may run fine but there are a number of inexpensive alternatives to replace them so you are sure the coils are not a problem. My .02
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Re: Cylinders dropping out

#26

Post by Koboldwrangler »

Sooo what im reading is, check the resistors again, replace the entire ignition system, and see how it runs?

Also pulled the carbs. The brass tubes that stick into the throats of the carb all have the holes facing the engine, and the slides still move buttery smooth. Should I do anything else to them before reinstalling them?

As far as the stripped screws go, theres a thread on here where someone just ran an 8-32 tap into the holes without drilling them and it worked perfectly. Thats the plan before reinstalling them.
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Re: Cylinders dropping out

#27

Post by ericheath »

Read and try post 24? It could eliminate one possibility.
Whatever I suggest here should be given ample time for a moderator to delicately correct. I apologize in advance.
77 WING, 1200 engine with 77 heads, cams, gl1100 foot pegs, Magna V65 front end, 764A carbs, [-gone Suzuki M109 monoshock--, replaced with gl1100 shocks] gl 1200 swing arm, gl1500 final drive, wheel and rear brakes Valkyrie seat, Meanstreak tank, Sportster pipes, Power Arc ignition off crank.
77 Wing. black
83 Wing, in pieces
"Continuing education is important even if the subject matter is fairly useless (as in this case)."---Greg Foresi
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Re: Cylinders dropping out

#28

Post by Koboldwrangler »

ericheath wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 8:44 pm Read and try post 24? It could eliminate one possibility.
having too much fuel is a very odd problem. that would indicate i have wrong jets in the carbs or a leaking crossover o ring, which i dont.
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Re: Cylinders dropping out

#29

Post by ericheath »

Or floats too high, or leaking float valves, or leaking carb-to plenum oring, or plenum seal. Pretty simple check. I’ve had all three, and it’s an easy elimination. New ignition won’t hurt, and probably is in the near future anyways, but don’t you want to know which it is?

The color of your plugs look like it’s rich. If it were dropping spark randomly, I would expect them to be wet but relatively clean.
Whatever I suggest here should be given ample time for a moderator to delicately correct. I apologize in advance.
77 WING, 1200 engine with 77 heads, cams, gl1100 foot pegs, Magna V65 front end, 764A carbs, [-gone Suzuki M109 monoshock--, replaced with gl1100 shocks] gl 1200 swing arm, gl1500 final drive, wheel and rear brakes Valkyrie seat, Meanstreak tank, Sportster pipes, Power Arc ignition off crank.
77 Wing. black
83 Wing, in pieces
"Continuing education is important even if the subject matter is fairly useless (as in this case)."---Greg Foresi
Koboldwrangler
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Re: Cylinders dropping out

#30

Post by Koboldwrangler »

ericheath wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 11:23 pm Or floats too high, or leaking float valves, or leaking carb-to plenum oring, or plenum seal. Pretty simple check. I’ve had all three, and it’s an easy elimination. New ignition won’t hurt, and probably is in the near future anyways, but don’t you want to know which it is?

The color of your plugs look like it’s rich. If it were dropping spark randomly, I would expect them to be wet but relatively clean.
weak spark can also cause in incomplete burn, causing the sooty plugs. i went through the carbs and replaced the orings. i will check the float levels. if it were running really rich on two cylinders id expect it to be smoking from the exhaust or running like the choke was on.
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