GL1000 Left Rear Cam Seal? (Solved, If Not Fixed)

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Lucien Harpress
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Re: GL1000 Left Rear Cam Seal? (Updated)

#16

Post by Lucien Harpress »

No worries. If you want the whole, sad saga of this bike, I've got an entire build thread in the Restoration section with all the details. But, to tackle your questions (roughly) in order then, here we go:

-The multiple leaky seals was in reference to the main cam seal I was having problems with, plus a leaky tach drive seal. The tach drive seal wasn't an issue- I did a whole motor/bike refresh over the past year or two, and simply hadn't gotten around to replacing the tach drive yet.

-Why did I take everything apart? See the above year-long refresh. Long story short, I had the engine out, it needed stuff like a new clutch and water pump, so I figured I'd do valve seals and top-end gaskets/o-rings/whatnot in the meantime. Major machined parts (ie, cam holder) were all re-used.

-The gouged cam journal is almost certainly my fault. After the seal that I put in during the motor refresh leaked, it didn't occur to me I could loosen the cam holder enough to simply slide the seal out, so I went at it with the "drill a hole, pull seal out with a screw" method. That's mostly likely where my drill nicked the cam.

-Old oil seals are trashed. Each one was pretty well ruined in different ways due to the removal process (which varied each time I did it).

-Yeah, I've ruled out crankcase pressure as well. I'm just not seeing it.

-The index pin has always been like that. I've never had a reason to remove it, so I never have. And the area is suspiciously clean because right before I took that photo I hit it with brake cleaner and Q-tips, so get rid of all the crud in order to look for imperfections. It was plenty oily beforehand, trust me.

As I said, I've got a couple more seals in the mail. I've also gone full nuclear option and ordered a replacement left camshaft as well. Do I need it? Hopefully not. But I'll have one in case I do.
1997 Valkyrie- Light Cutomization, but Too Busy Riding
1980 KZ1300- Bike's Haunted
1976 GL1000 (Yellow)- It Runs (Poorly) and Doesn't Leak (Mostly)
1974 Velosolex 3800- Better Than Walking
1972 CB750- Broke the Chain And Ate the Motor
1969 CT90- The Most Fun You Can Have on 90ccs.
1965 CA77 Dream- Needs a Full Teardown, but Complete

All advice I give is only valid until an expert corrects me.
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gltriker
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Re: GL1000 Left Rear Cam Seal? (Updated)

#17

Post by gltriker »

Without spending a lot of time reading the project posts again, I understand you replaced valve stem seals.
That requires removing the cam holder and cam shaft to gain access to those targeted components.
What's the odds the cam shaft holders were mistakenly reinstalled on opposite cylinder heads?

If not that reassembly error, I trust the replacement oil seal is dimensionally correct.

Truthfully I have not performed cylinder head work on these engines.

Most likely the cam holders have different end fastener hole placements from side to side and reversing the cam holders side to side is not even thinkable.
Last edited by gltriker on Sun Aug 28, 2022 9:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Cliff (74yrs ;) )

Keep your eyes and ears open and you'll learn something new, everyday. tumb2

New users please visit our "Shop Talk" for common tips and help: <---jdvorchak
http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/page/ST
^^^^^^^click up here^^^^^ :oldies

RE: a thorough fuel tank cleaning
"And your carbs will thank you. They no longer live down stream from a sewage plant." -gregforesi tumb2
"Can't see the paint when your looking thru the handlebars..........." -Oldewing ;)
"I'd rather Ride than Shine" -RAT tumb2 Me Too!!

Cliff

'75 GL1000 home built trike; http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=39996
October,2017 BOTM :shock: https://nakedgoldwingsclub.com/forum/page/Welcome

previous rides:
1953 H-D Servi-car, naked, 1969-1978 (serial#53G1559 committed to memory!)
1980 CB900 Custom (triked) 1997-2003 .... R.I.P.
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Lucien Harpress
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Re: GL1000 Left Rear Cam Seal? (Updated)

#18

Post by Lucien Harpress »

Nope, all the parts that came off went right back where they came from. Seals (because I've ordered several of them now) have been a combination of OEM or reputable aftermarket. My current set I have coming is from 4 into 1, which I've always been happy with. That's partially why this leak has me so annoyed/stumped. It shouldn't be THIS complicated, you know? :lol:
1997 Valkyrie- Light Cutomization, but Too Busy Riding
1980 KZ1300- Bike's Haunted
1976 GL1000 (Yellow)- It Runs (Poorly) and Doesn't Leak (Mostly)
1974 Velosolex 3800- Better Than Walking
1972 CB750- Broke the Chain And Ate the Motor
1969 CT90- The Most Fun You Can Have on 90ccs.
1965 CA77 Dream- Needs a Full Teardown, but Complete

All advice I give is only valid until an expert corrects me.
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gltriker
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Re: GL1000 Left Rear Cam Seal? (Updated)

#19

Post by gltriker »

tumb2 true dat

That camshaft journal gouge is troubling to understand what caused it to happen.

Good luck 👍
Cliff (74yrs ;) )

Keep your eyes and ears open and you'll learn something new, everyday. tumb2

New users please visit our "Shop Talk" for common tips and help: <---jdvorchak
http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/page/ST
^^^^^^^click up here^^^^^ :oldies

RE: a thorough fuel tank cleaning
"And your carbs will thank you. They no longer live down stream from a sewage plant." -gregforesi tumb2
"Can't see the paint when your looking thru the handlebars..........." -Oldewing ;)
"I'd rather Ride than Shine" -RAT tumb2 Me Too!!

Cliff

'75 GL1000 home built trike; http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=39996
October,2017 BOTM :shock: https://nakedgoldwingsclub.com/forum/page/Welcome

previous rides:
1953 H-D Servi-car, naked, 1969-1978 (serial#53G1559 committed to memory!)
1980 CB900 Custom (triked) 1997-2003 .... R.I.P.
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Lucien Harpress
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Re: GL1000 Left Rear Cam Seal? (Updated)

#20

Post by Lucien Harpress »

Hey, just because I'm fixing bikes all the time doesn't mean I'm good at it. :)
1997 Valkyrie- Light Cutomization, but Too Busy Riding
1980 KZ1300- Bike's Haunted
1976 GL1000 (Yellow)- It Runs (Poorly) and Doesn't Leak (Mostly)
1974 Velosolex 3800- Better Than Walking
1972 CB750- Broke the Chain And Ate the Motor
1969 CT90- The Most Fun You Can Have on 90ccs.
1965 CA77 Dream- Needs a Full Teardown, but Complete

All advice I give is only valid until an expert corrects me.
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Re: GL1000 Left Rear Cam Seal? (Updated)

#21

Post by digger »

Digger likes - “Hey, just because I'm fixing bikes all the time doesn't mean I'm good at it.”
So true, there are many teaching and learning lessons along the way. Like Doug says, don’t give up 👍
1975 GL1000
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gltriker
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Re: GL1000 Left Rear Cam Seal? (Updated)

#22

Post by gltriker »

Off and on, I have been looking at your problem area photo and wondering if the gap between the cylinder head and the cam holder assembly exists because their 6 clamping cap screws are presently still loosened?
Last edited by gltriker on Mon Aug 29, 2022 9:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
Cliff (74yrs ;) )

Keep your eyes and ears open and you'll learn something new, everyday. tumb2

New users please visit our "Shop Talk" for common tips and help: <---jdvorchak
http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/page/ST
^^^^^^^click up here^^^^^ :oldies

RE: a thorough fuel tank cleaning
"And your carbs will thank you. They no longer live down stream from a sewage plant." -gregforesi tumb2
"Can't see the paint when your looking thru the handlebars..........." -Oldewing ;)
"I'd rather Ride than Shine" -RAT tumb2 Me Too!!

Cliff

'75 GL1000 home built trike; http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=39996
October,2017 BOTM :shock: https://nakedgoldwingsclub.com/forum/page/Welcome

previous rides:
1953 H-D Servi-car, naked, 1969-1978 (serial#53G1559 committed to memory!)
1980 CB900 Custom (triked) 1997-2003 .... R.I.P.
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Re: GL1000 Left Rear Cam Seal? (Updated)

#23

Post by redglbx »

Lucien, looking at your photo of the nicked cam journal I don’t think you’ll ever get a seal to seal on that surface as is. If it were me, I would remove the cam and use a fine Arkansas stone on the nick to make sure it doesn’t have a raised portion that cuts the seal lip.

Then I would clean it really well with some brake cleaner and once clean fill the divot with some really good high strength 2 part epoxy. Let it dry really good for a couple of days and then very carefully work the high spots of the epoxy off. Once you have the divot filled and worked flush use that Arkansas stone or some really fine sandpaper to make the surface finish really smooth.

THEN I would put a new seal in and see if it will run dry, if not then your gonna need a new cam. On the points drive pin, yours is the same as all I’ve ever seen, totally normal.

So at this point just stay after it, you’ll get it done, everyone gets one of these deals occasionally, I’m going through one with a set of customer carbs now that’s just making me crazy with leaks, they really got hacked up by a previous owner who non-stop complained about how poorly they ran,,, and now I completely understand why. So many things wrong !
Red 1976 oe owner
1976 LTD restored
1980 CBX , in the que, to fix the ignorant heavy handed owner
1981 CBX
1977 CB750 K7
2014 FJR OE owner, sold
1980 GL1100
1984 GL1200 naked
1969 CL350, in the que
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Lucien Harpress
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Re: GL1000 Left Rear Cam Seal? (Updated)

#24

Post by Lucien Harpress »

...which raises an interesting question, now that I think of it.

Do the cam HOLDERS need some kind of sealant? I've never used any, but looking at the geometry of the area, there's possibly places around the outside of the cam seal (top and bottom) that are just metal on metal.
1997 Valkyrie- Light Cutomization, but Too Busy Riding
1980 KZ1300- Bike's Haunted
1976 GL1000 (Yellow)- It Runs (Poorly) and Doesn't Leak (Mostly)
1974 Velosolex 3800- Better Than Walking
1972 CB750- Broke the Chain And Ate the Motor
1969 CT90- The Most Fun You Can Have on 90ccs.
1965 CA77 Dream- Needs a Full Teardown, but Complete

All advice I give is only valid until an expert corrects me.
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gltriker
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Re: GL1000 Left Rear Cam Seal? (Updated)

#25

Post by gltriker »

I had to remove the trike's right side camshaft about 10 years ago. The belt pulley refused to give up and I refused to damage it.
When reinstalling the camshaft-sans the stubborn pulley- I applied just a thin smear of a product called Loctite 515 around the o.d. of the original installed rubber cased oil seal. Squeeze out is not detrimental to the safe operation of the system.

Loctite 515 is a semi-transparent petroleum resistant sealant I used when mating the metal-to-metal aluminum alloy halves of small displacement hydraulic reel drive motors . Not a composite gasket sealed design. Still had a partial tube in my tool box.

Other than a miniscule smidgen on those corners that are externally visible on either side of the o.d. of the oil seal, there is zero need for sealant. No hydraulic oil pressure there.
Last edited by gltriker on Mon Sep 05, 2022 4:02 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Cliff (74yrs ;) )

Keep your eyes and ears open and you'll learn something new, everyday. tumb2

New users please visit our "Shop Talk" for common tips and help: <---jdvorchak
http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/page/ST
^^^^^^^click up here^^^^^ :oldies

RE: a thorough fuel tank cleaning
"And your carbs will thank you. They no longer live down stream from a sewage plant." -gregforesi tumb2
"Can't see the paint when your looking thru the handlebars..........." -Oldewing ;)
"I'd rather Ride than Shine" -RAT tumb2 Me Too!!

Cliff

'75 GL1000 home built trike; http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=39996
October,2017 BOTM :shock: https://nakedgoldwingsclub.com/forum/page/Welcome

previous rides:
1953 H-D Servi-car, naked, 1969-1978 (serial#53G1559 committed to memory!)
1980 CB900 Custom (triked) 1997-2003 .... R.I.P.
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gltriker
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Re: GL1000 Left Rear Cam Seal? (Updated)

#26

Post by gltriker »

Okay. You are going to remove the original camshaft. Either to repair the gouged out journal or replace the camshaft.
Get the camshaft out of the picture and reinstall the camshaft holder onto the cylinder head. Make sure both alignment "dowels" are in place , reinstall the camshaft holder onto the cylinder head and torque those 6 capscrews to the proper number.
Then you can determine if there is a problem with improper alignment of the 2 assembled together with all 6 capscrews installed and torqued to specification number THEN precision machined as a matched set metal- to- metal contacted components.
Align bored.
Like Nike used to emphasize in their commercials,

Just Do It! :oldies
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Screenshot_20220829-120656_Chrome.jpg (37.98 KiB) Viewed 379 times
Cliff (74yrs ;) )

Keep your eyes and ears open and you'll learn something new, everyday. tumb2

New users please visit our "Shop Talk" for common tips and help: <---jdvorchak
http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/page/ST
^^^^^^^click up here^^^^^ :oldies

RE: a thorough fuel tank cleaning
"And your carbs will thank you. They no longer live down stream from a sewage plant." -gregforesi tumb2
"Can't see the paint when your looking thru the handlebars..........." -Oldewing ;)
"I'd rather Ride than Shine" -RAT tumb2 Me Too!!

Cliff

'75 GL1000 home built trike; http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=39996
October,2017 BOTM :shock: https://nakedgoldwingsclub.com/forum/page/Welcome

previous rides:
1953 H-D Servi-car, naked, 1969-1978 (serial#53G1559 committed to memory!)
1980 CB900 Custom (triked) 1997-2003 .... R.I.P.
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Lucien Harpress
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Re: GL1000 Left Rear Cam Seal? (Updated)

#27

Post by Lucien Harpress »

So, I've got about 3 oil seals showing up by the end of the week, with a new cam behind them by a couple of days. So the plan is to clean everything up best I can (again), loosen the cam holder slightly, install one of my new seals without sealant, tighten it all back up, and see if I can get it to seal up that way.

The macro setting on my camera makes the cam nick look a lot worse than it is, and if it IS enough to tear an oil seal while installing it, I've got two replacements. If it still leaks after that? Cam's coming out, I'll check the fitment of the holder to the head, and it's getting replaced with the new cam.

In the meantime (just for fun) I got a better shot of the rear of the cam from head-on. The shadows of my other pic were a bit deceiving as to how tight the holder fit to the head. There may be (MAY be) a slight misalignment front to back, but at the same time the mating surfaces that the points housing fits against are flush, so that may just be how it was machined.

Image

Oh well. Hopefully at the end of the week I can get this sucker to do something. Or at least STOP doing something.
1997 Valkyrie- Light Cutomization, but Too Busy Riding
1980 KZ1300- Bike's Haunted
1976 GL1000 (Yellow)- It Runs (Poorly) and Doesn't Leak (Mostly)
1974 Velosolex 3800- Better Than Walking
1972 CB750- Broke the Chain And Ate the Motor
1969 CT90- The Most Fun You Can Have on 90ccs.
1965 CA77 Dream- Needs a Full Teardown, but Complete

All advice I give is only valid until an expert corrects me.
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gltriker
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Re: GL1000 Left Rear Cam Seal? (Updated)

#28

Post by gltriker »

gltriker wrote: Sun Aug 28, 2022 11:52 am tumb2 true dat

That camshaft journal gouge is troubling to understand what caused it to happen.

Good luck 👍
I believe I may have figgered out how the camshaft journal became gouged. If you were to have left the 6 cap screws loose enough that the oil seal could have been pushed into place, with your finger tips, the lip seal and its case would not have been cocked/distorted by hammering it into place. Yes. Finger tips ;)

There's little doubt in my mind the correct oil seal is a double lip configuration, with a hidden garter type backup spring around the inner sealing lip. https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/ATM2117 ... sionRank=1

a Best Practice oil seal installation requires employing a lip seal "protector". A well lubricated microfiche card ( or similar thin yet not easily wrinkled film ) serves that purpose; Very Well. tumb2

A commonly utilized strategy in the olden days, was to use the transparent cellophane wrapper that surrounds a pack of cigarettes.
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page/ST scroll down right hand column to: "Crossover Parts List by Big T - Why not save yourself some bucks"
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Last edited by gltriker on Mon Sep 05, 2022 3:06 pm, edited 5 times in total.
Cliff (74yrs ;) )

Keep your eyes and ears open and you'll learn something new, everyday. tumb2

New users please visit our "Shop Talk" for common tips and help: <---jdvorchak
http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/page/ST
^^^^^^^click up here^^^^^ :oldies

RE: a thorough fuel tank cleaning
"And your carbs will thank you. They no longer live down stream from a sewage plant." -gregforesi tumb2
"Can't see the paint when your looking thru the handlebars..........." -Oldewing ;)
"I'd rather Ride than Shine" -RAT tumb2 Me Too!!

Cliff

'75 GL1000 home built trike; http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=39996
October,2017 BOTM :shock: https://nakedgoldwingsclub.com/forum/page/Welcome

previous rides:
1953 H-D Servi-car, naked, 1969-1978 (serial#53G1559 committed to memory!)
1980 CB900 Custom (triked) 1997-2003 .... R.I.P.
User avatar
gltriker
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Re: GL1000 Left Rear Cam Seal? (Updated)

#29

Post by gltriker »

gltriker wrote: Sat Aug 27, 2022 1:11 pm I believe you could find someone that can follow simple instructions and install a wear sleeve on that mess for you.
Yes, you need to completely remove the camshaft off the cylinder head to do the repair; Correctly. ;)
No, you won't need to locate a different internal diameter lip seal.
https://www.skf.com/us/products/industr ... edi-sleeve
https://www.skf.com/us/products/industr ... ctid-99106
If the camshaft ends' journal diameter range in the GL1000 Shop Manual is correct, 99106 appears to be the gouge repair item you would require.
0.313 in ( 5/16ths in ) is the Nominal width of this plain sleeve. The dimension, end to end, that the repair sleeve will cover when installed.
-
I sense you won't buy into this repair method, anyways, but it is a viable option. The least expensive source I have located is this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/154436919522?e ... R_rGjO_dYA

Okay, I am Finally finished bugging you! tumb2
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Cliff (74yrs ;) )

Keep your eyes and ears open and you'll learn something new, everyday. tumb2

New users please visit our "Shop Talk" for common tips and help: <---jdvorchak
http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/page/ST
^^^^^^^click up here^^^^^ :oldies

RE: a thorough fuel tank cleaning
"And your carbs will thank you. They no longer live down stream from a sewage plant." -gregforesi tumb2
"Can't see the paint when your looking thru the handlebars..........." -Oldewing ;)
"I'd rather Ride than Shine" -RAT tumb2 Me Too!!

Cliff

'75 GL1000 home built trike; http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=39996
October,2017 BOTM :shock: https://nakedgoldwingsclub.com/forum/page/Welcome

previous rides:
1953 H-D Servi-car, naked, 1969-1978 (serial#53G1559 committed to memory!)
1980 CB900 Custom (triked) 1997-2003 .... R.I.P.
User avatar
gltriker
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Re: GL1000 Left Rear Cam Seal? (Updated) Progress?

#30

Post by gltriker »

-
ShopTalk tumb2 page/ST
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Screenshot_20220905-131436_Chrome.jpg (18.24 KiB) Viewed 282 times
Cliff (74yrs ;) )

Keep your eyes and ears open and you'll learn something new, everyday. tumb2

New users please visit our "Shop Talk" for common tips and help: <---jdvorchak
http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/page/ST
^^^^^^^click up here^^^^^ :oldies

RE: a thorough fuel tank cleaning
"And your carbs will thank you. They no longer live down stream from a sewage plant." -gregforesi tumb2
"Can't see the paint when your looking thru the handlebars..........." -Oldewing ;)
"I'd rather Ride than Shine" -RAT tumb2 Me Too!!

Cliff

'75 GL1000 home built trike; http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=39996
October,2017 BOTM :shock: https://nakedgoldwingsclub.com/forum/page/Welcome

previous rides:
1953 H-D Servi-car, naked, 1969-1978 (serial#53G1559 committed to memory!)
1980 CB900 Custom (triked) 1997-2003 .... R.I.P.
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