Black exhaust smoke question

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kerryb
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Black exhaust smoke question

#1

Post by kerryb »

Black exhaust smoke, not white or sweet smelling. I'm hoping this is a mixture question but not sure where to turn. Background...1977 gl1000, 24k miles, compression test 150, 151, 149, 150. Carbs carefully rebuilt with stock jets, Randaakks kits & new Honda oem float needles and seats. Split aftermarket exhaust with good baffles. Idles well at 1100 rpm after warmup, carb vaccuum synch done. Mixture screws out 3 1/2 turns from seated. Valve clearances carefully set to "stock". Leakdown test revealed no leaks from valves.
The mixture screw setting was by "ear" and to get rid of black smoke from both cylinder banks. Now cyls 1& 3 are not smoking, 2 & 4 are giving just a hint of smoke at idle and increased rpm's.
I'm not sure how to prodeed, heads were not pulled because compression was good, bike came to me with several issues like siezed brakes, and a report of low compression on cylinder 4. Brakes are now rebuilt along with new belts, oil, and coolant.
Wondering what adjustment could be made to try to reduce smoking on 2/4 bank.
p.s. feul levels in the bowls might be a little low. (Clear tube method)
intrigued by the wail...seduced by the scream.
'78 cb750K, '83 GL1100s,I,&A,'08FXSTC, '79 WilMac trike
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gltriker
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Re: Black exhaust smoke question

#2

Post by gltriker »

Setting pilot screws 3 turns out from seated works. Turns of pilot adjuster screws out, CCW, results in richer pilot mixture results.
Are the slow fuel jets bigger numbers than the OEM #35?

Set all valves at 0.006 inches. Yes. Leave them set at 0.006 inches.

note: I've read you have posted cylinder compression test result readings at " stock " valve lash clearance; 0.004 inches I gather?
If you chose to follow Nixon's advisement to add 0.002 inch to all 8 valves, compression test them all, again, and post the new results here again, please.

Make sure the choke cable has good slack when the knob is pushed all the way in (opened) and both sides' choke shutters are opening, fully.

Another consideration, though not likely a cause of smoking at idle is reversing installed placements of the screwed-in primary and secondary main air jets located under the kidney shaped plate.
Last edited by gltriker on Mon Apr 25, 2022 4:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Cliff (74yrs ;) )

Keep your eyes and ears open and you'll learn something new, everyday. tumb2

New users please visit our "Shop Talk" for common tips and help: <---jdvorchak
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Cliff

'75 GL1000 home built trike; http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=39996
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Re: Black exhaust smoke question

#3

Post by Whiskerfish »

If this is a resurrection from parked I would run it for a couple tanks of gas to see how it responds. Monitor your plugs.
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Re: Black exhaust smoke question

#4

Post by pidjones »

Stuck choke or carbs not balanced.
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Re: Black exhaust smoke question

#5

Post by kerryb »

gltriker wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 1:54 am Set pilot screws 3 turns out from seated works. Turns of pilot adjuster screws out, CCW, results in richer pilot mixture results.
Are the slow fuel jets bigger numbers than OEM #35?

Set all valves at 0.006 inches. Yes. Leave them set at 0.006 inches.

note: I've read you have posted cylinder compression test result readings at " stock " valve lash clearance; 0.004 inches I gather?
If you chose to follow Nixon's advisement to add 0.002 inch to all 8 valves, compression test them all, again, and post the new results here again, please.

Make sure the choke cable has good slack when the knob is pushed all the way in (opened) and both sides' choke shutters are opening, fully.

Another consideration, though not likely a cause of smoking at idle is reversing installed placements of the screwed-in primary and secondary main air jets located under the kidney shaped plate.
Jets are all stock, & I was careful to get them back in the right ports. Chokes are operating properly. I shall reset the mixture screws and run it some more, I guess new plugs are in order so they can be "read". I'm curious about the larger valve lash, where would I read more about this?
I may have set the float levels too low (not enough fuel in the bowls), but I don't think this would contribute to smoking. I would guess that low levels will show up in fuel starvation at cruising speed.
The bike isn't mine, so I would like to get it right before giving it back. Thus "running it for a few tankfuls" is the less-desired solution but maybe neccessary. If getting the float levels more correct is the best solution, I can check the air jet #'s at that tiime (arrrghh)

Thanks for the responses. Some pics to follow
intrigued by the wail...seduced by the scream.
'78 cb750K, '83 GL1100s,I,&A,'08FXSTC, '79 WilMac trike
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gltriker
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Re: Black exhaust smoke question

#6

Post by gltriker »

kerryb wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 10:03 am
gltriker wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 1:54 am Set pilot screws 3 turns out from seated works. Turns of pilot adjuster screws out, CCW, results in richer pilot mixture results.
Are the slow fuel jets bigger numbers than OEM #35?

Set all valves at 0.006 inches. Yes. Leave them set at 0.006 inches.

note: I've read you have posted cylinder compression test result readings at " stock " valve lash clearance; 0.004 inches I gather?
If you chose to follow Nixon's advisement to add 0.002 inch to all 8 valves, compression test them all, again, and post the new results here again, please.

Make sure the choke cable has good slack when the knob is pushed all the way in (opened) and both sides' choke shutters are opening, fully.

Another consideration, though not likely a cause of smoking at idle is reversing installed placements of the screwed-in primary and secondary main air jets located under the kidney shaped plate.

I'm curious about the larger valve lash, where would I read more about this?
start here- tumb2
viewtopic.php?f=54&t=63468
Cliff (74yrs ;) )

Keep your eyes and ears open and you'll learn something new, everyday. tumb2

New users please visit our "Shop Talk" for common tips and help: <---jdvorchak
http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/page/ST
^^^^^^^click up here^^^^^ :oldies

RE: a thorough fuel tank cleaning
"And your carbs will thank you. They no longer live down stream from a sewage plant." -gregforesi tumb2
"Can't see the paint when your looking thru the handlebars..........." -Oldewing ;)
"I'd rather Ride than Shine" -RAT tumb2 Me Too!!

Cliff

'75 GL1000 home built trike; http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=39996
October,2017 BOTM :shock: https://nakedgoldwingsclub.com/forum/page/Welcome

previous rides:
1953 H-D Servi-car, naked, 1969-1978 (serial#53G1559 committed to memory!)
1980 CB900 Custom (triked) 1997-2003 .... R.I.P.
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Re: Black exhaust smoke question

#7

Post by gltriker »

I was thinking the 'gasoline' in this bike's fuel tank might be of questionable quality too. Contaminated .

You might be agreeable to, at least, drain the carburetors' fuel bowls and feed them fresh gasoline directly from a remote source.

If the "Black exhaust smoke question" has been answered by changing the fuel ànd its source, then drain the GL's fuel tank, feed it fresh gasoline and be happy 😊
Cliff (74yrs ;) )

Keep your eyes and ears open and you'll learn something new, everyday. tumb2

New users please visit our "Shop Talk" for common tips and help: <---jdvorchak
http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/page/ST
^^^^^^^click up here^^^^^ :oldies

RE: a thorough fuel tank cleaning
"And your carbs will thank you. They no longer live down stream from a sewage plant." -gregforesi tumb2
"Can't see the paint when your looking thru the handlebars..........." -Oldewing ;)
"I'd rather Ride than Shine" -RAT tumb2 Me Too!!

Cliff

'75 GL1000 home built trike; http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=39996
October,2017 BOTM :shock: https://nakedgoldwingsclub.com/forum/page/Welcome

previous rides:
1953 H-D Servi-car, naked, 1969-1978 (serial#53G1559 committed to memory!)
1980 CB900 Custom (triked) 1997-2003 .... R.I.P.
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gltriker
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Re: Black exhaust smoke question

#8

Post by gltriker »

kerryb wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 10:03 am
The bike isn't mine, so I would like to get it right before giving it back. Thus "running it for a few tankfuls" is the less-desired solution but maybe neccessary. If getting the float levels more correct is the best solution, I can check the air jet #'s at that tiime (arrrghh)

Thanks for the responses. Some pics to follow
What was the diagnosis and repair status of this investigation, kerryb?
Cliff (74yrs ;) )

Keep your eyes and ears open and you'll learn something new, everyday. tumb2

New users please visit our "Shop Talk" for common tips and help: <---jdvorchak
http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/page/ST
^^^^^^^click up here^^^^^ :oldies

RE: a thorough fuel tank cleaning
"And your carbs will thank you. They no longer live down stream from a sewage plant." -gregforesi tumb2
"Can't see the paint when your looking thru the handlebars..........." -Oldewing ;)
"I'd rather Ride than Shine" -RAT tumb2 Me Too!!

Cliff

'75 GL1000 home built trike; http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=39996
October,2017 BOTM :shock: https://nakedgoldwingsclub.com/forum/page/Welcome

previous rides:
1953 H-D Servi-car, naked, 1969-1978 (serial#53G1559 committed to memory!)
1980 CB900 Custom (triked) 1997-2003 .... R.I.P.
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kerryb
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Re: Black exhaust smoke question

#9

Post by kerryb »

Currently, the end result is the owner is going to ride it a few hundred miles before further steps are taken. He seemed to think it was barely noticable and not concerning him.
To answer some other suggestions: all gas was non-alcohol high test. I didn't reset the valve clearances, but I'm eager to do the full process on my '83 with 62k on it
Carbs were completely cleaned and rebuilt with Randakks parts. Jets were stock, and in the right places.
intrigued by the wail...seduced by the scream.
'78 cb750K, '83 GL1100s,I,&A,'08FXSTC, '79 WilMac trike
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Re: Black exhaust smoke question

#10

Post by redglbx »

Kerry, in just the last couple of years I’ve taken to setting the valve lash to bigger clearances (.006in) because when I resurrected my 76 LTD it ran great initially and then gradually faded to running like crap a couple of times. The initial thing I found was that the valves clearances had closed up to nearly zero and once reset to the correct .004in it ran great again. This happened several times until after around 500mi it finally settled in and kept the proper clearances.

So this is what I think, the bike had sat on a shelf apart in a warehouse for approximately 20+ years and I’m guessing it may have got corrosion on the valve faces & seats that got beat off during running & allowed the clearances to close up. So will opening the clearances up to .006in fix this ? No but may allow you to run longer and maybe reset the valves before they close up. Reading Mike Nixon’s writeup on this and the gain in compression is what finally convinced me to do this, yes there will be a very slight drop in power due to shorter cam lift and duration but nothing you will ever feel and will do no harm doing it. My .02
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1980 CBX , in the que, to fix the ignorant heavy handed owner
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Re: Black exhaust smoke question

#11

Post by gltriker »

kerryb wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 7:41 pm Currently, the end result is the owner is going to ride it a few hundred miles before further steps are taken. He seemed to think it was barely noticable and not concerning him.
To answer some other suggestions: all gas was non-alcohol high test. I didn't reset the valve clearances, but I'm eager to do the full process on my '83 with 62k on it
Carbs were completely cleaned and rebuilt with Randakks parts. Jets were stock, and in the right places.
high test gasoline isn't necessary. fresh 87 octane is factory specified for a properly tuned GL1000 engine.
It was encouraging to read the individual cylinders' compression test results you had posted. tumb2

My 1975 GL1000 engine ran well on 87 octane for 32,000 + miles. I didn't baby my trike's engine.
I would occasionally ride south of Syracuse on rt.81 to an exit which headed east, with quite a few long steep inclines, and Never noticed any spark knock while climbing them in 5th gear. With new, 'not constipated' mufflers in place, trike wouldn't miss a beat. Never.
It and I would repeatable climb the grades still slowly accelerating as long as the rpms were above 4,000.
That equals 60mph as trike's final ratio is mechanical advantage enhanced with a 3.73 to 1 vs. the 3.40 to 1 ratio the stock GL1000 final drive ratio.

Whiskerfish had indicated he knows the same route on his way to visit a family member near Morrisville, NY, as well.

If high test is this fellow's usual selection, advise him to refill with 87 octane gasoline for the future rides.
It won't cause damage to his bike's engine.

Don't fret about ethanol.

Kerry. Remain eager to increase the valve lash clearance on your 1100 engine. Don't let 'Cam' discourage you from doing so. ;) Record the before re-adjusted, and after re-adjusted individual cylinder compression test results, please.
Cliff (74yrs ;) )

Keep your eyes and ears open and you'll learn something new, everyday. tumb2

New users please visit our "Shop Talk" for common tips and help: <---jdvorchak
http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/page/ST
^^^^^^^click up here^^^^^ :oldies

RE: a thorough fuel tank cleaning
"And your carbs will thank you. They no longer live down stream from a sewage plant." -gregforesi tumb2
"Can't see the paint when your looking thru the handlebars..........." -Oldewing ;)
"I'd rather Ride than Shine" -RAT tumb2 Me Too!!

Cliff

'75 GL1000 home built trike; http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=39996
October,2017 BOTM :shock: https://nakedgoldwingsclub.com/forum/page/Welcome

previous rides:
1953 H-D Servi-car, naked, 1969-1978 (serial#53G1559 committed to memory!)
1980 CB900 Custom (triked) 1997-2003 .... R.I.P.
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Re: Black exhaust smoke question

#12

Post by redglbx »

Kerry, I believe the advice to just ride it is sound. A couple of things I would add is to recheck the valve clearances after 100 or so miles to ensure the clearances haven’t closed up some. I would also set the idle mixture screws to 3 turns out.

Compression, there’s a lot said about compression but a leak-down test is probably a better thing. As a side note when I bought my red 76 new many years ago it didn’t run very well for a variety of reasons but I did run a compression test when it was relatively new with it having 135-145psi on it, with Honda spec at 171psi, mine only got to those numbers after I milled .040in off the heads and advanced the cams 4deg. Your numbers are good imho. The 171psi spec I’ve only seen a few reach that and most of those were later 78-79 models with different cams. Honda puts that spec pretty much on all their motors which is just a number pulled out of the air in my opinion. Consistency is more important I believe, across the cylinders and time, up until I milled the heads on my 76 it remained consistently around the 135-145psi from new. So what does that mean ? I don’t know, it’s just a number.

On the fuel thing, way to many people “think” that running premium is better and will give them more power which is completely false unless your motor is built & tuned to run premium. Regular & premium are basically the same except premium has more anti knock additives added ( like ethanol ) so the motor doesn’t knock. There is only so many btu’s of energy in a gallon of gas and some of those btu’s are displaced when antiknock additives are added so there’s actually less “power” in a gallon of premium vs a gallon of regular.

Adding the ethanol to gas today is actually a better thing than in the old days when they added lead to increase the octane where they added way more than really needed under the guise of lubricating the valves (it did) but actually was more about raising the octane. But there’s no btu’s of energy in lead but there is in alcohol which is less than gas but provides a much cleaner result than lead. Long term storage with ethanol laced fuel is the only bad thing because the ethanol absorbs water out of the air causing things like a gas tank to rust. It also attacks and dissolves the rubber in the fuel systems, which is why using Randakks Viton based rubber components are important because Viton resists alcohol. Anyway that’s my .02. I believe you’ll be fine, just ride the bike but pay attention to the valve clearances, maybe have your customer bring it back to recheck the valves after 100 or so miles.
Red 1976 oe owner
1976 LTD restored
1980 CBX , in the que, to fix the ignorant heavy handed owner
1981 CBX
1977 CB750 K7
2014 FJR OE owner, sold
1980 GL1100
1984 GL1200 naked
1969 CL350, in the que
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gltriker
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Re: Black exhaust smoke question

#13

Post by gltriker »

🙄
Cliff (74yrs ;) )

Keep your eyes and ears open and you'll learn something new, everyday. tumb2

New users please visit our "Shop Talk" for common tips and help: <---jdvorchak
http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/page/ST
^^^^^^^click up here^^^^^ :oldies

RE: a thorough fuel tank cleaning
"And your carbs will thank you. They no longer live down stream from a sewage plant." -gregforesi tumb2
"Can't see the paint when your looking thru the handlebars..........." -Oldewing ;)
"I'd rather Ride than Shine" -RAT tumb2 Me Too!!

Cliff

'75 GL1000 home built trike; http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=39996
October,2017 BOTM :shock: https://nakedgoldwingsclub.com/forum/page/Welcome

previous rides:
1953 H-D Servi-car, naked, 1969-1978 (serial#53G1559 committed to memory!)
1980 CB900 Custom (triked) 1997-2003 .... R.I.P.
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kerryb
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Re: Black exhaust smoke question

#14

Post by kerryb »

About that gas...I use non-alcohol gas for storage, so that's all I have in the cans in the garage. I put sta-bil in it when I get it because I don't know how long it will be in the can. That's why this bike was running on it, that's all there was. Just returned from a 660 mile campout run with the '83 aspencade pulling a 350 lb. camper up and down the mountains of Pa. Ran only 87 octane with alcohl, had plenty of power (just keep the revs up) and got a combined mpg of 37+mpg with the camper. Normal mileage on that bike is 45 mpg.
That is also the bike that will be the guinea pig for the .oo6 valve lash test. Currently the tappets seem kinda noisy at higher rpm under load, so it was going to get checked soon anyway. (62k on motor) won't happen for a couple weeks due to another '83 resurrection currently under way.
intrigued by the wail...seduced by the scream.
'78 cb750K, '83 GL1100s,I,&A,'08FXSTC, '79 WilMac trike
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Re: Black exhaust smoke question

#15

Post by gltriker »

:shock: Sounds like your ''83 Aspencade is quite the workhorse tumb2
Cliff (74yrs ;) )

Keep your eyes and ears open and you'll learn something new, everyday. tumb2

New users please visit our "Shop Talk" for common tips and help: <---jdvorchak
http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/page/ST
^^^^^^^click up here^^^^^ :oldies

RE: a thorough fuel tank cleaning
"And your carbs will thank you. They no longer live down stream from a sewage plant." -gregforesi tumb2
"Can't see the paint when your looking thru the handlebars..........." -Oldewing ;)
"I'd rather Ride than Shine" -RAT tumb2 Me Too!!

Cliff

'75 GL1000 home built trike; http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=39996
October,2017 BOTM :shock: https://nakedgoldwingsclub.com/forum/page/Welcome

previous rides:
1953 H-D Servi-car, naked, 1969-1978 (serial#53G1559 committed to memory!)
1980 CB900 Custom (triked) 1997-2003 .... R.I.P.
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