Cooling and charging issues

Discuss everything about Honda GoldWing. Feel free to ask any question related to GoldWing.

Moderators: CYBORG, Oldewing, robin1731, Forum Moderators

Post Reply
Koboldwrangler
Cast Iron Member
Cast Iron Member
Posts: 64
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2022 10:13 am

Re: Cooling and charging issues

#16

Post by Koboldwrangler »

Sagebrush wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 7:53 am Rectifier is probably good, the stater not so much. Rectifier has to have proper input in order to work properly and your measurements for the rectifier are normal for forward and reverse. Diodes are like check valves. They allow flow in one direction and none in the other direction. A failed reading would be a dead short in either direction or most likely an open in both directions.
Shadowjack wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 8:21 am Two bikes, two rectifiers. Swap them and see what your symptoms are then.
The rectifier is way out of tolerance according to the shop manual. It's supposed to be 5-40 ohms in forward bias, and mine is 125,000 ohms.

Can someone measure theirs and see how it compares to mine?
User avatar
pidjones
SUPER BIKER!!!!
SUPER BIKER!!!!
Posts: 3237
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 4:06 pm
Location: East TN

Re: Cooling and charging issues

#17

Post by pidjones »

PG 18-8 of the FSM
"Love 'em all.... let God sort 'em out!"
Ex 2006 GL1800 - the Black Pearl SOLD! to make room for:
2021 Can-Am Spyder RT Limited Dark Chalk Metallic
1975 Red GL1000 project - ex Pistol Pete project
1972 Triumph T150V Trident rescue - finished and FOR SALE!
1976 Yamaha RD400c
1978 GL1000 with '75 engine - the Hunley
Ex 1978 GL1000
Ex 1979 GL1000
Ex '79 CB750F rat bike
Ex '86 SEi
Ex '77 GL1000
Ex '76 RD400
Ex '72 Penton 125 set up for flat track
Ex '73 RD250
Ex '68 TR6C - chopped
Koboldwrangler
Cast Iron Member
Cast Iron Member
Posts: 64
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2022 10:13 am

Re: Cooling and charging issues

#18

Post by Koboldwrangler »

pidjones wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 3:17 pm PG 18-8 of the FSM
please read my previous post. I have people in this thread saying its fine, which contradicts the FSM.
User avatar
pidjones
SUPER BIKER!!!!
SUPER BIKER!!!!
Posts: 3237
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 4:06 pm
Location: East TN

Re: Cooling and charging issues

#19

Post by pidjones »

Koboldwrangler wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 3:47 pm
pidjones wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 3:17 pm PG 18-8 of the FSM
please read my previous post. I have people in this thread saying its fine, which contradicts the FSM.
I read your post before replying. Your diodes are toast or your meter is not reading them properly.
"Love 'em all.... let God sort 'em out!"
Ex 2006 GL1800 - the Black Pearl SOLD! to make room for:
2021 Can-Am Spyder RT Limited Dark Chalk Metallic
1975 Red GL1000 project - ex Pistol Pete project
1972 Triumph T150V Trident rescue - finished and FOR SALE!
1976 Yamaha RD400c
1978 GL1000 with '75 engine - the Hunley
Ex 1978 GL1000
Ex 1979 GL1000
Ex '79 CB750F rat bike
Ex '86 SEi
Ex '77 GL1000
Ex '76 RD400
Ex '72 Penton 125 set up for flat track
Ex '73 RD250
Ex '68 TR6C - chopped
redglbx
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 1116
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:39 am
Location: NW Indiana,

Re: Cooling and charging issues

#20

Post by redglbx »

I’ll add a couple of things to all this. On my 76 that I’ve been riding and modifying since new and I had a lot of trouble with over heating and charging over time. Charging, the wing or most old Honda’s for that matter have a poor charging system which is just barely adequate to keep the bike running and the battery charged (LED’s are your friend). Which a fully charged battery should provide 2.2volts per each of the 6 cells for a total of 13.2 volts. The Oe wing system should provide around 14 or so volts, not uncommon to see 15 to 16 volts (boiled battery) charging, the oe Honda regulator/rectifier isn’t very good ! I ended up with a Ricks mosfet regulator/rectifier which keeps the charging voltage right at 14.2v give or take .2v .. it’s a bit more expensive but no more boiled batteries. This doesn’t you help if it’s a cooked stator but I beIieve Ricks offers a lifetime garuntee on his. Swap the regulator/rectifier from your other bike first before pulling the engine. Also look closely at the 3 yellow wires and their connector, particularly the connector, they are a problem ! Most like me just cut the plug out and solder the wires directly to each other.

Cooling, man I can’t tell you the number of times my 76 over heated, I did it all, replaced the water pump & hoses and even had a custom 4 row radiator made ($380) which helped but didn’t fix things. I found that the fan didn’t come on because of a bad switch and ultimately I plugged the fan into a 12v source to ensure it worked right. It did come on in the bike but it didn’t spin as fast as it should, so a new 9” hi volume pancake fan went in with an adjustable thermo switch for off/on control, big help ! The Oe fan is rated to around 400cfm vs the new fan which is 1200cfm I believe, you can definitely hear when it comes on ! I really hate hot coolant in the crotch !

One of the things that ultimately helped with the overheating is setting the timing dynamically, I have a Dyna setup and Randakk for years now has maintained that statically setting the timing causes it to be over advanced 6-10 degrees, he is absolutely correct ! With all the things I’ve done my bike now runs pretty cool all the time, I’m happy !

By the way if you go with a used radiator take it to a local shop and have it cleaned out and tested to make sure you have a good piece. Anyway that’s my story !
Red 1976 oe owner
1976 LTD restored
1980 CBX , in the que, to fix the ignorant heavy handed owner
1981 CBX
1977 CB750 K7
2014 FJR OE owner, sold
1980 GL1100
1984 GL1200 naked
1969 CL350, in the que
Koboldwrangler
Cast Iron Member
Cast Iron Member
Posts: 64
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2022 10:13 am

Re: Cooling and charging issues

#21

Post by Koboldwrangler »

redglbx wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 8:23 am I’ll add a couple of things to all this. On my 76 that I’ve been riding and modifying since new and I had a lot of trouble with over heating and charging over time. Charging, the wing or most old Honda’s for that matter have a poor charging system which is just barely adequate to keep the bike running and the battery charged (LED’s are your friend). Which a fully charged battery should provide 2.2volts per each of the 6 cells for a total of 13.2 volts. The Oe wing system should provide around 14 or so volts, not uncommon to see 15 to 16 volts (boiled battery) charging, the oe Honda regulator/rectifier isn’t very good ! I ended up with a Ricks mosfet regulator/rectifier which keeps the charging voltage right at 14.2v give or take .2v .. it’s a bit more expensive but no more boiled batteries. This doesn’t you help if it’s a cooked stator but I beIieve Ricks offers a lifetime garuntee on his. Swap the regulator/rectifier from your other bike first before pulling the engine. Also look closely at the 3 yellow wires and their connector, particularly the connector, they are a problem ! Most like me just cut the plug out and solder the wires directly to each other.
My battery is new, so that isnt an issue.

When I did the same FSM test to the spare rectifier, it netted the same results -- 125k ohms on the diodes. Hence why I would like someone here to do a reading on theirs. I need a known good part to compare mine against.

The stator is cooked. Not only is one leg weak, but they are all shorted to ground. I saw another post here saying the three legs will still output 50v if shorted to ground, but as soon as they are asked to go under load, they stop working.

My plug is fine and not overheated.
Cooling, man I can’t tell you the number of times my 76 over heated, I did it all, replaced the water pump & hoses and even had a custom 4 row radiator made ($380) which helped but didn’t fix things. I found that the fan didn’t come on because of a bad switch and ultimately I plugged the fan into a 12v source to ensure it worked right. It did come on in the bike but it didn’t spin as fast as it should, so a new 9” hi volume pancake fan went in with an adjustable thermo switch for off/on control, big help ! The Oe fan is rated to around 400cfm vs the new fan which is 1200cfm I believe, you can definitely hear when it comes on ! I really hate hot coolant in the crotch !
This is something that is hard to judge. If its obviously turning slowly, thats one thing. But when mine was running, it seemed to be turning fairly fast, and the radiators was scorching hot. I believe I have some sort of tuning issue as when the bike is above idle (like at 3000rpm while doing the charging tests) its constantly popping and banging out the left muffler. I need to do a timing check and valve adjustment when I have the time.
One of the things that ultimately helped with the overheating is setting the timing dynamically, I have a Dyna setup and Randakk for years now has maintained that statically setting the timing causes it to be over advanced 6-10 degrees, he is absolutely correct ! With all the things I’ve done my bike now runs pretty cool all the time, I’m happy !

By the way if you go with a used radiator take it to a local shop and have it cleaned out and tested to make sure you have a good piece. Anyway that’s my story !
Honestly I have been putting off replacing the points as I'd like to just go with the dyna system. Mine seem to be working okay for now, but I will be checking them soon. I've already replaced the condensers and added the ground strap, but that made no difference to how it runs.
User avatar
Sidecar Bob
Honored Life Member
Honored Life Member
Posts: 7634
Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2006 10:14 pm
Location: Kawartha Lakes, Ontario

Re: Cooling and charging issues

#22

Post by Sidecar Bob »

Note that the manual specifies to use a specific make and model of meter that was supplied to Honda techs at the time. Other meters may provide different readings and some may even have the meter lead colours reversed in the ohms settings (they will be correct when the meter is set to volts or amps).

What kind of meter are you using? (make? model? a pic might help)

I would expect 125K ohms to be the reverse biased resistance of a diode. What do you read if you reverse the test leads?
Also, what scale are you using? some meters don't read diodes very well on some resistance scales (I find this worse on digital meters).
Mr. Honda ('83 GL1100/Dnepr) summer How a motorcycle evolves thread
The Famous Eccles ('84 CX650EI/VeloUral) winter Never Ending Build (CX500forum)
Click: Colour schematics for all GL1000 & GL1100 and GL1200 standard models plus instructions on how to download the full size version
"A guy with two sidecars can't be all bad." - Cookie
Another guy with two sidecars..... Hmmmm... must be something to that....
Koboldwrangler
Cast Iron Member
Cast Iron Member
Posts: 64
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2022 10:13 am

Re: Cooling and charging issues

#23

Post by Koboldwrangler »

Sidecar Bob wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 1:00 pm Note that the manual specifies to use a specific make and model of meter that was supplied to Honda techs at the time. Other meters may provide different readings and some may even have the meter lead colours reversed in the ohms settings (they will be correct when the meter is set to volts or amps).
I have never heard of reversing the leads on any meter, even the cheapo harbor freight ones.

If your meter is providing a reading other than what other meters do on the same setting, you have an issue with one of the meters.

And, the manual actually does not call out any specific meter as seen here in the FSM.
Untitled.png
Untitled.png (10.2 KiB) Viewed 304 times
What kind of meter are you using? (make? model? a pic might help)
20220418_172152.jpg
20220418_172152.jpg (185.39 KiB) Viewed 304 times
Bosch Fix 7677
I would expect 125K ohms to be the reverse biased resistance of a diode. What do you read if you reverse the test leads?
Also, what scale are you using? some meters don't read diodes very well on some resistance scales (I find this worse on digital meters).
Well, its not. 125+k is in forward bias. Reverse bias is open circuit. I believe the junction is not conducting anymore.

This is why I WOULD REALLY LIKE someone to check theirs so I have a good reference to go off of.
20220418_180343.jpg
20220418_180343.jpg (206.26 KiB) Viewed 304 times
User avatar
Sidecar Bob
Honored Life Member
Honored Life Member
Posts: 7634
Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2006 10:14 pm
Location: Kawartha Lakes, Ontario

Re: Cooling and charging issues

#24

Post by Sidecar Bob »

Some analogue meters have the positive voltage on the black lead and the negative on the red in the ohms settings. It has to do with reading volts, amps &c from left to right and ohms from left to right and keeping the circuitry as simple as possible.
I don't think I've come across a digital meter that doesn't have positive voltage on the red lead in the ohms settings but their displays are driven by processors.

At any rate, when I studied electronics (just before these bikes were made) digital meters were rare, expensive and honestly not very good so everyone used analogue ones and we were basically taught that a diode should be high resistance one way and low the other and you needed to learn which was which for the meter you had.
Honda published specific resistance values because their techs didn't get a lot of training in electronics.

The other Honda manuals I am familiar with do specify the meter to use so I am surprised that your manual doesn't specify the meter to use. What is the publication date? (maybe by then they stopped specifying)
FWIW, my GL1000 FSM (1975 version) doesn't specify the meter either but it has a very small Electrical section that only covers the Reserve Lighting Unit (I never really looked at that section before because I bought it for engine &c info when I had a 1000 engine in the '83 bike).
I figure that was because the techs were expected to use the Honda Common Service Manual for anything not model specific (the whole 1975 manual is only 120 pages and has very little in some other sections too). The oldest HCSM I have is from '88 and it does specify meters & test equipment by Honda part number in several places.

Anyway, it is not surprising that a digital ohmmeter would indicate a different resistance for a diode than an analogue one because digital ones measure with much lower current.

Anyway, I notice that your meter has a diode test setting (something not dreamed of 40+ years ago). I'd recommend using that. It should tell you the voltage across the diode when forward biased, which should probably be somewhere between half a volt and just over a volt depending on the composition of the diodes. If all 6 diodes read close to the same the rectifier is probably OK.
Mr. Honda ('83 GL1100/Dnepr) summer How a motorcycle evolves thread
The Famous Eccles ('84 CX650EI/VeloUral) winter Never Ending Build (CX500forum)
Click: Colour schematics for all GL1000 & GL1100 and GL1200 standard models plus instructions on how to download the full size version
"A guy with two sidecars can't be all bad." - Cookie
Another guy with two sidecars..... Hmmmm... must be something to that....
Koboldwrangler
Cast Iron Member
Cast Iron Member
Posts: 64
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2022 10:13 am

Re: Cooling and charging issues

#25

Post by Koboldwrangler »

Sidecar Bob wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 12:13 am Some analogue meters have the positive voltage on the black lead and the negative on the red in the ohms settings. It has to do with reading volts, amps &c from left to right and ohms from left to right and keeping the circuitry as simple as possible.
I don't think I've come across a digital meter that doesn't have positive voltage on the red lead in the ohms settings but their displays are driven by processors.

At any rate, when I studied electronics (just before these bikes were made) digital meters were rare, expensive and honestly not very good so everyone used analogue ones and we were basically taught that a diode should be high resistance one way and low the other and you needed to learn which was which for the meter you had.
Honda published specific resistance values because their techs didn't get a lot of training in electronics.

The other Honda manuals I am familiar with do specify the meter to use so I am surprised that your manual doesn't specify the meter to use. What is the publication date? (maybe by then they stopped specifying)
FWIW, my GL1000 FSM (1975 version) doesn't specify the meter either but it has a very small Electrical section that only covers the Reserve Lighting Unit (I never really looked at that section before because I bought it for engine &c info when I had a 1000 engine in the '83 bike).
I figure that was because the techs were expected to use the Honda Common Service Manual for anything not model specific (the whole 1975 manual is only 120 pages and has very little in some other sections too). The oldest HCSM I have is from '88 and it does specify meters & test equipment by Honda part number in several places.

Anyway, it is not surprising that a digital ohmmeter would indicate a different resistance for a diode than an analogue one because digital ones measure with much lower current.

Anyway, I notice that your meter has a diode test setting (something not dreamed of 40+ years ago). I'd recommend using that. It should tell you the voltage across the diode when forward biased, which should probably be somewhere between half a volt and just over a volt depending on the composition of the diodes. If all 6 diodes read close to the same the rectifier is probably OK.
Can you measure and compare your rectifier to mine? I'd rather just do that than play who's right and shotgun parts at the bike.

I'm using the '78 gl1000 fsm.

It already needs a stator. I checked the battery voltage when checking the rectifier and it was at 11.6 volts. It ain't charging anymore. What would cause the stator to fry itself this early on in it's life? (Only has 26k on it)

I'll make a separate thread later about what I should service while the motor is out.
User avatar
Sidecar Bob
Honored Life Member
Honored Life Member
Posts: 7634
Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2006 10:14 pm
Location: Kawartha Lakes, Ontario

Re: Cooling and charging issues

#26

Post by Sidecar Bob »

Mine has the later combined regulator/rectifier so I'm not sure the diodes in it would be the same type as in the separate rectifier. Perhaps someone with a 1000 can measure their rectifier but I still think testing the diodes with the meter's diode test function would be best.

A number of things could cause the stator to fail including a defective electrical accessory connected without a fuse (which could have been removed with no trace before you saw the bike) and running it with a battery that had been damaged by a long period of disuse without maintenance.

BTW, I don't think you mentioned it but was the stator unplugged from everything else when you tested it? I ask because having the regulator connected could cause results similar to yours.
Mr. Honda ('83 GL1100/Dnepr) summer How a motorcycle evolves thread
The Famous Eccles ('84 CX650EI/VeloUral) winter Never Ending Build (CX500forum)
Click: Colour schematics for all GL1000 & GL1100 and GL1200 standard models plus instructions on how to download the full size version
"A guy with two sidecars can't be all bad." - Cookie
Another guy with two sidecars..... Hmmmm... must be something to that....
Koboldwrangler
Cast Iron Member
Cast Iron Member
Posts: 64
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2022 10:13 am

Re: Cooling and charging issues

#27

Post by Koboldwrangler »

Sidecar Bob wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 9:51 am Mine has the later combined regulator/rectifier so I'm not sure the diodes in it would be the same type as in the separate rectifier. Perhaps someone with a 1000 can measure their rectifier but I still think testing the diodes with the meter's diode test function would be best.

A number of things could cause the stator to fail including a defective electrical accessory connected without a fuse (which could have been removed with no trace before you saw the bike) and running it with a battery that had been damaged by a long period of disuse without maintenance.

BTW, I don't think you mentioned it but was the stator unplugged from everything else when you tested it? I ask because having the regulator connected could cause results similar to yours.
I had the three yellow wire plug from the engine unplugged when testing it. Unless theres another mystery plug going to the stator, thats how I tested it. From my understanding, the regulator grounds one of the three legs to regulate the voltage. However, with the engine off, all three legs are shorted to ground.
User avatar
Sidecar Bob
Honored Life Member
Honored Life Member
Posts: 7634
Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2006 10:14 pm
Location: Kawartha Lakes, Ontario

Re: Cooling and charging issues

#28

Post by Sidecar Bob »

Yeah, I had to ask to make sure. Too bad.
Mr. Honda ('83 GL1100/Dnepr) summer How a motorcycle evolves thread
The Famous Eccles ('84 CX650EI/VeloUral) winter Never Ending Build (CX500forum)
Click: Colour schematics for all GL1000 & GL1100 and GL1200 standard models plus instructions on how to download the full size version
"A guy with two sidecars can't be all bad." - Cookie
Another guy with two sidecars..... Hmmmm... must be something to that....
redglbx
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 1116
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:39 am
Location: NW Indiana,

Re: Cooling and charging issues

#29

Post by redglbx »

I’ll add one thing on the popping and banging on the left side,,, while you have your VOM out check your plug caps if you still have the oe type Bakelite caps, check the resistance across them, they should read less than 5k ohms, usually just less but less, I have found that lots of weird or odd run problems can be traced to bad plug caps. One of the 1st things I usually look at when things aren’t running right.
Red 1976 oe owner
1976 LTD restored
1980 CBX , in the que, to fix the ignorant heavy handed owner
1981 CBX
1977 CB750 K7
2014 FJR OE owner, sold
1980 GL1100
1984 GL1200 naked
1969 CL350, in the que
User avatar
Old Fogey
Honored Life Member
Honored Life Member
Posts: 7702
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2007 11:31 pm
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Contact:

Re: Cooling and charging issues

#30

Post by Old Fogey »

redglbx wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 7:34 am I’ll add one thing on the popping and banging on the left side,,, while you have your VOM out check your plug caps if you still have the oe type Bakelite caps, check the resistance across them, they should read less than 5k ohms, usually just less but less, I have found that lots of weird or odd run problems can be traced to bad plug caps. One of the 1st things I usually look at when things aren’t running right.
I'll second that! Those caps cause me some head scratching!
https://www.wingovations.com/plugcapcorrosion
"Impossible Is Just a Level of Difficulty!..."
If I'd wanted you to understand, I would have explained it better! (Johann Cruyff)
I’d give my right arm to be ambidextrous! :-D
Post Reply
  • Similar Topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post

Return to “GoldWing Tech Discussions”