79 Charging system upgrade

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wolf_walker78
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79 Charging system upgrade

#1

Post by wolf_walker78 »

Fixed the charging issues on my 79 project bike. The stock setup is.. Dated.
Used a mosfet non-shunting reg/rec combo, removed the funky stator wiring from the harness(that went off into lala land for some reason), capped, grounded, re-wired as needed.
Had to grind a couple brackets off the shelter side to make room to mount the new unit but it all seems pretty happy.

I think the stock charging setup would work, obviously it did work, but the voltage drop in the electrical system on this thing
is nuts, like 1-2 volts depending on where you measure. It's a mess, I saw like 10.7v on the three gauge cluster power line with the battery at 12.6 the other day. The stock regulator was seeing a good bit below battery voltage and overcharging as a result. Bad system for a setup like this that's devoid of weatherproof connections. Though it was possibly as good as it got in the late 70's. I was trying to trace the resistance point/voltage drop the other week and found a volt missing going through the ignition switch, replaced it and the replacement was doing the same thing, so..
At any rate, it's charging and not overcharging now. I'll revisit the electrical jazz at some point, I'd really like to replace this stuff all with weatherpack connectors but that's a project.

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rcmatt007
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Re: 79 Charging system upgrade

#2

Post by rcmatt007 »

what we forget is that the connectors actually worked well 40 years ago when they were brand new... but corrosion on the spades, corrosion in the wire ends etc, takes its toll. Good idea to clean up all the connectors on the beast.
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all it takes for evil to prosper is the want of a few good men to do nothing-Edmund Burke
The question is not how much time do you have, it is what you do with the time that you have Gandalf
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79 project, finished, FOR SALE
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wolf_walker78
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Re: 79 Charging system upgrade

#3

Post by wolf_walker78 »

I just ordered a new can of contact cleaner to do just that.
I'm still a bit puzzled by the voltage drop going through both the original and new
ignition switch. I'm also amazed these things were ever able to be driven
in the rain without shorting out.
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Re: 79 Charging system upgrade

#4

Post by rcmatt007 »

when the coil wires get old, they do just that
-Rodger-
all it takes for evil to prosper is the want of a few good men to do nothing-Edmund Burke
The question is not how much time do you have, it is what you do with the time that you have Gandalf
"One of the greatest dignities of humankind is that each successive generation is invested in the welfare of each new generation." Fred Rodgers
"it takes 10,000 hours to become an expert" ancient saying
78 constantly modified/customized since 1978, BOTM June 2015 de-evolving this very moment viewtopic.php?f=30&t=65511
76 Ltd "cookies bike" ALMOST DONE
79 project, finished, FOR SALE
'86 1200 (Beth's)(FOR SALE) with motorvation sidecar (sidecar sold) , July 2017 BOTM
'17 HD Road king and 08 HD Heritage softail (Beth's) (FOR SALE). I guess you can say we have MBS
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mikenixon
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Re: 79 Charging system upgrade

#5

Post by mikenixon »

Contact cleaner isn't enough. Removing each spade terminal and wire brushing it, if not replacing it, and then soldering is the ticket. On the keyswitch, no doubt aftermarket. You get what you pay for for sure in this instance.
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Re: 79 Charging system upgrade

#6

Post by Chainman »

Thanks Mike; timely answer for me.
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Re: 79 Charging system upgrade

#7

Post by wolf_walker78 »

mikenixon wrote:Contact cleaner isn't enough. Removing each spade terminal and wire brushing it, if not replacing it, and then soldering is the ticket. On the keyswitch, no doubt aftermarket. You get what you pay for for sure in this instance.
The exact same voltage drop as the factory one?
I think the cure for that is to find a sufficient micro-relay
and have it do the switching. You run into the same problem
with headlamps on older cars, same solution.
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Re: 79 Charging system upgrade

#8

Post by wolf_walker78 »

mikenixon wrote:Contact cleaner isn't enough. Removing each spade terminal and wire brushing it, if not replacing it, and then soldering is the ticket. On the keyswitch, no doubt aftermarket. You get what you pay for for sure in this instance.

At that amount of labor it's time to replace them all with modern weather sealed connectors imo.
We'll see how it goes, may come to that. At the moment now that the charging system is no longer
reliant on the aged connectors it's all functioning reasonably well. Undervolting the headlamp will
be less than ideal, and ignitions don't typically like that either. They don't run these coils at full
power (ballast resistor) so they may be good-enough. I'll check that stuff and see here shortly.
The charging system was the main problem though.
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Re: 79 Charging system upgrade

#9

Post by mikenixon »

wolf_walker78 wrote:
mikenixon wrote:Contact cleaner isn't enough. Removing each spade terminal and wire brushing it, if not replacing it, and then soldering is the ticket. On the keyswitch, no doubt aftermarket. You get what you pay for for sure in this instance.

At that amount of labor it's time to replace them all with modern weather sealed connectors imo.
We'll see how it goes, may come to that. At the moment now that the charging system is no longer
reliant on the aged connectors it's all functioning reasonably well. Undervolting the headlamp will
be less than ideal, and ignitions don't typically like that either. They don't run these coils at full
power (ballast resistor) so they may be good-enough. I'll check that stuff and see here shortly.
The charging system was the main problem though.
Not an unusual amount of work for this task. At it includes simulating the same benefit sealed connectors.
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Re: 79 Charging system upgrade

#10

Post by wolf_walker78 »

While cleaning and to a lesser degree soldering (unless the crimp was inadequate) will restore resistance-less connectivity, one is missing out on the primary benefit of a weather pack connector, being sealed from the elements(especially relevant on a motorcycle or any equipment that gets used regularly out in the elements) and prolonging the time before corrosion sets in again. They are not unlike a set of points, the degradation process begins anew the moment after cleaning. There are numerous treatments up to and including something as crass as filling the back side of the plastic connector with silicone to "seal" them, but none of them are a substitute for a real sealed connector. I've spent more hours of my life than I'd care to admit cleaning and treating such on decades old European cars, which are rather infamous for dodgy electrics, and you just simply cease to have any issues like that at any age with modern wiring. I will say in Honda's favor that the insulation isn't deteriorating on the three GL's I have on hand though, which can't be said of many that age.
In hindsight I'd have built a new harness for these bikes but I really don't want to take the thing apart again right now.
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Re: 79 Charging system upgrade

#11

Post by mikenixon »

wolf_walker78 wrote:While cleaning and to a lesser degree soldering (unless the crimp was inadequate) will restore resistance-less connectivity, one is missing out on the primary benefit of a weather pack connector, being sealed from the elements(especially relevant on a motorcycle or any equipment that gets used regularly out in the elements) and prolonging the time before corrosion sets in again. They are not unlike a set of points, the degradation process begins anew the moment after cleaning. There are numerous treatments up to and including something as crass as filling the back side of the plastic connector with silicone to "seal" them, but none of them are a substitute for a real sealed connector. I've spent more hours of my life than I'd care to admit cleaning and treating such on decades old European cars, which are rather infamous for dodgy electrics, and you just simply cease to have any issues like that at any age with modern wiring. I will say in Honda's favor that the insulation isn't deteriorating on the three GL's I have on hand though, which can't be said of many that age.
In hindsight I'd have built a new harness for these bikes but I really don't want to take the thing apart again right now.
As I say, packing the old style Canon plug with grease is an approximation of having a DIN (waterproof) connector. It provides equal benefits. In my view, there is nothing to be gained by going DIN.
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Re: 79 Charging system upgrade

#12

Post by mikenixon »

These charging systems do indeed tend to go to an overcharge mode. This is because they employ a very old design of regulator, basically one from the CB350/450. It's nothing but an SCR that intermittently shunts one of the phases' legs to neutral, reducing output to a sub-maintenance level. Then it is on again. Then off again. Click click click. When it fails it often goes open, thus acting as if the regulator were completely disconnected. Temporarly disconnecting is by the way a good dynamic test for a bad regulator.
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Re: 79 Charging system upgrade

#13

Post by wolf_walker78 »

mikenixon wrote:These charging systems do indeed tend to go to an overcharge mode. This is because they employ a very old design of regulator, basically one from the CB350/450. It's nothing but an SCR that intermittently shunts one of the phases' legs to neutral, reducing output to a sub-maintenance level. Then it is on again. Then off again. Click click click. When it fails it often goes open, thus acting as if the regulator were completely disconnected. Temporarly disconnecting is by the way a good dynamic test for a bad regulator.
This one appeared to be sensing a volt and change lower than actual battery voltage and over-compensating.
Certainly the regulator was a bit out of spec after all this time. The rectifier was crazy hot as well, I know shunting
does that but man, that was way hotter than a passively cooled component should ever be.
All better now. Yay technology.
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Re: 79 Charging system upgrade

#14

Post by Sidecar Bob »

One thing to consider about "sealed" connectors: Nothing is ever truly perfectly sealed. Water can & will eventually get into them and when it does it won't be able go get back out unless you open the connector and let it dry out.
The open type of connectors that were industry standard when these bikes were made, on the other hand, may allow the water in but also let it drain out freely...

Something about electrical connectors that is seldom mentioned is that they need maintenance. It isn't terribly difficult but it is fiddly: Just unplug and re-plug them every few years. Doing that slides the terminals against each other and disturbs any oxidation between the contact points (spraying with contact cleaner won't hurt but isn't strictly required).
While you are doing that visually inspect the terminals in each connector and where they are crimped onto the wires and if you see any corrosion or excessive dirt spray in the contact cleaner and clean with a brush. (I have a 1/2" paint brush with the bristles cut short that is good for that and I also use one with the bristles full length.) If you can't get the green out that way you will need to remove the terminal from the connector and possibly replace it of you can't get it clean enough with contact cleaner and brushes (this is where the small brass brush helps). And don't forget to clean every trace of dirt & corrosion out of the plastic connector housing before you insert the new terminal.

BTW: I don't make unplugging and re-plugging the connectors a major maintenance project but when I am working on something electrical I like to un & re-plug whatever is near it so eventually everything will get done.
Also, I never solder a terminal to a wire. I am an electronic/acoustic technician by training so I know how to solder but I also know that the wire can become brittle next to where you heat it to solder (and no, using a lower power soldering tool doesn't hale prevent that; If anything it makes it worse because you have to apply the heat longer). I also know all about "cold solder" and how it can effect the joint's ability to conduct. On the other hand, when a terminal is a properly crimped to a wire the contact between them is so intimate that it is more likely for corrosion to occur inside the insulation next to the connection than inside the crimped connection.
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Re: 79 Charging system upgrade

#15

Post by wolf_walker78 »

I use a very small wire wheel on a dremel at low speed often times, you can often get into connectors( to the male terminal at least),
There are some good contact cleaner type products out there too beyond the generic stuff, expensive though.
Deoxit has been pretty good, another called coppercoat I think is pretty fair at sealing things up.

As un-initiative as it sounds, a good double crimp with a proper tool and terminal are really great for something that vibrates, in fact it's required for aircraft vs soldering. If nothing else it's harder to screw up than soldering, but one made with a ratcheting crimper and heat shrinked is pretty stout.

Any idea why honda used tin or aluminum on some terminals vs copper or brass on others?
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