Well, this is annoying (head gasket)

[Sidecar Bob]

When I put Mr.H together in '97 (from my wrecked 1000 and an 1100 that had been sitting for a decade) I figured I'd only have it for 4-5 years and I'd tell the next owner about what I'd done.
By the time I got my GL500 (2000) I knew things changed faster on winter bikes than summer ones (especially parts like brake calipers that need to be replaced every few years due to road salt) so I figured I'd better start writing it all down (I didn't keep nearly as complete notes as I do now because I still didn't expect to need to remember more than a few years).
When I put the current winter machine together ('06) I used parts that came from from over a dozen bikes and I wanted to keep it all straight so I started making better notes.
But all I had written down for about Mr.H was a few notes inside the covers of the Haynes book (mostly stuff like which thermostat and rad cap to buy) and I found I was spending a lot of maintenance time figuring out which bike some of the parts came from so I started a book for it, beginning with a page where I wrote down everything I could remember from '95 - '06.
Both machines have things that are not standard and require procedures that are different from the FSM, like how to remove Mr.H's front wheel since I replaced the forks and what blocking is needed between Eccles' engine and the dolly when removing/installing it. I used to write those things in the book where they were first needed but later started putting the ones I knew I'd need over & over inside the front & back covers so I could find them easier. And the more I looked stuff up in those logs the more I wished I had included more information so these days they are pretty detailed and I also take a lot of pics (which are stored on the network drive so I can access them from the computer in the garage and the one in the house and they are automatically backed up too).

[Sidecar Bob]

(from Wednesday afternoon)
This is the skinniest 'Wing I've seen in a while

Skinny GoldWing.jpg (131.28 KiB) Viewed 336 times

The heads came off much more easily than I expected. After disconnecting everything and removing the left head's bolts I gave it a couple of taps with the small deadblow and all that was holding it on was the water pipe (I left the joint bolted to the head) and it lifted off as if the engine hadn't been run since it was installed. The gasket didn't look too bad so I was starting to wonder if I could have gotten away with just re-torquing them.

Then I took the right one off and saw this. The fibre art of the gasket has been pushed back from the metal layer, almost as if it had been scraped with a putty knife but probably pushed by combustion gasses. The fire ring is intact (no cracks/splits) so I can only assume that the gasses passed between the fire ring and the block.

Gasket.jpg (483.46 KiB) Viewed 336 times

The mating surfaces were covered with a gray material that looked like anti-seize and came off very easily with a razor blade; If I hadn't installed them myself I would think whoever put it together used some kind of inappropriate sealant. But I know I installed them dry so it must have come from the gaskets themselves (from the Athena kit)
Here's what the block looked like after I removed the gray goo. The rest of the surfaces are about the same; I probably could just wipe them with solvent and install the new gaskets but I think I'll give the surfaces a light stoning to make sure

Block scraped with razor blade.JPG (79.51 KiB) Viewed 336 times

BTW: That isn't rust in the cylinders and on the pistons &c. sometimes my camera adds an orange cast while compensating for lighting.

[77Gowing]

Great pictures Sidecar. Glad you had an easier time of it than expected. It's good to plan ahead and think things through, But one can overthink themselves into avoiding the task all together. I have this problem often and struggle to stay positive about it. After all, lots of people have had to change head gaskets & what not.
Good luck with your results, I expect it to be well worth your effort.

[robin1731]

"The mating surfaces were covered with a gray material that looked like anti-seize and came off very easily with a razor blade;"

That is the coating from the gasket. OEM gaskets have the same type of material on them. Be careful with " I think I'll give the surfaces a light stoning". Some people will take a file and file the block smooth. They mention that the iron sleeves stick above the aluminum block. They proceed to file the sleeves down flat/even to the block. Then down the road they have more head gasket issues. I believe the sleeve is a bit above the surface of the block by design. This helps the sleeve make better contact with the gasket ring for better seal/more squish. Especially when the engine heats up and the aluminum block expands more than the cast iron sleeve does.

.

[77Gowing]

I believe the sleeve is a bit above the surface of the block by design. This helps the sleeve make better contact with the gasket ring for better seal/more squish. Especially when the engine heats up and the aluminum block expands more than the cast iron sleeve does.

Thanks Robin, this is good to know stuff and very logical.

[Sidecar Bob]

Going over mating surfaces with a flat sharpening stone to clean off anything left of the old gaskets or sealant is recommended in the HCSM and I was told to do so by an old friend who is a trained Honda mechanic. You dip the stone in water (I like to add a bit of dish detergent), then hold it flat against the surface while rubbing it lightly with a circular motion. When the water on the surface looks dirty wipe it off and dip the stone in the water to clear it.

All of the head gaskets I've removed before were baked onto the mating surfaces so that at least parts of them were stuck hard and I've never seen any soft residue on the mating surfaces. This gray stuff had the consistency of putty.

[robin1731]

snip........
All of the head gaskets I've removed before were baked onto the mating surfaces so that at least parts of them were stuck hard and I've never seen any soft residue on the mating surfaces. This gray stuff had the consistency of putty.

Yes, that is exactly what it looks like when the gaskets were only on for shorter periods of time. Say a year or two, or much less, as compared to a decade or more. I've seen it on lot's of different head gaskets. Not just Goldwings but other models as well. It is just the composition of the gasket material.

.

[Sidecar Bob]

I'll take your word for it. I've never had one back apart that quickly before.

Anyway, my genuine Honda gaskets are here and I noticed that the openings in the gaskets are much larger than the bores of the cylinders
Bore - 74.7mm
Athena gasket - 77.3mm
Honda 1100/1200 gasket - 76.3mm
(note: may be slightly out because of my cheap digital caliper but they should be out consistently)

But more importantly, the fire rings on the Honda gaskets are the same width on both sides of the gasket but on the Athena gaskets it is much narrower on the side facing the engine block, where it needs to be squashed against the sleeve. I believe that the rings overlapped the sleeves by less than 1mm all the way around. That doesn't seem like enough to me....

A couple of questions:
In the past I have always installed genuine Honda gaskets dry and never re-torqued them on both the GL1000 engine and the CX650.
Several years ago Honda ran out of original gaskets for the CX/GL650 engine and the best of the aftermarket replacement (made available by members of the online CX community) require copper gasket spray and numerous re-torquings to adequately seal (the explanation given is that the new ones don't contain asbestos like the originals did).
1) When I installed the Athena gaskets I did not spray them and I thought I re-torqued them after about 500 Km but the more I think about it the less sure I am and I can't find it in my maintenance log. Could this be the reason the Athena gaskets failed?
2) Are these genuine Honda gaskets the same as the ones I bought for my 1000 engine 8 or more years ago or has the composition (& the required installation method) changed?
In other words. do I need to use copper spray on my new genuine Honda gaskets and re-torque them?

[Sidecar Bob]

When nobody here answered I emailed my friend Murray (murrayscarbs.com), told him what I'm doing and asked "If asbestos is no longer allowed, does that mean that the genuine Honda gaskets I just bought will need multiple re-torques or can I just install them per the book?" He replied "Install as per the book they should be graphite impregnated"

Later on while I was looking for something else I found Randakk's page on head gaskets, which says:
"Section 5, page 19 of the official GL1000 workshop manual recommends the use of “liquid sealer” but does not get any more specific. Plus, that information is 40+ years old. My practice: I install OEM Honda head gaskets “dry.” They are impregnated with heat and pressure activated agents to ensure a proper seal for the oil and coolant passages. Adding any “gasket sealer” to the equation might compromise Honda’s engineering and invite disaster. Decide for yourself, but if you ever want to test this and waste $40.00, torque down a new Honda head gasket. Then come back the next day (without firing the engine) and remove the head. You will be amazed at how well bonded the head gasket is without the benefit of a heat cycle! Note: this “experiment” will destroy the new head gasket!"
and
"I recommend that all new head gaskets be put through a heat cycle and then re-torqued. I use 100% distilled water for this step. The heat cycle should be done with no pressure in the cooling system (radiator cap off). Let the engine cool completely and then re-torque. For this final re-torquing, I recommend that each head bolt be cracked slightly loose and then re-tightened to specification following the recommended torque sequence pattern."

So I will install them dry and re-torque once after a heat cycle with the rad cap off& overnight cooling just to be safe.

I didn't feel a lot like working today but I did stone the mating surfaces. You may have a hard time telling tell how much cleaner it is now because the light was different from the last pic

Block cleaned up.jpg (112.97 KiB) Viewed 279 times

But it shows up well when compared side by side. The right head (on left in pic) has just had the gray goo removed with the razor blade but the left head (on right in pic) has been gone over with the stone to remove the rest of the residue, then wiped with lacquer thinner (the white tissue came away black the first 2 times) and then with Tool & Parts cleaner

Heads before & after.jpg (109.99 KiB) Viewed 279 times

I'll wipe the surfaces again a few minutes before assembly.

BTW: I also touched up the paint on the top of the engine where I spilled fuel on it while draining the carbs last fall and the paint lifted. I am less impressed with the VHT engine enamel than I was 2 years ago; One would expect that a paint intended for use on engines would be cured enough a year (& numerous heat cycles) after application to be fuel resistant. And that it wouldn't lift when a touch up coat was applied. I think I managed to get it to where it won't look too bad considering that the effected area is mostly behind the manifolds and under the carbs but it wouldn't be acceptable in plain sight.

[77Gowing]

Is that an RC controller in the pic? Car, Copter, Plane or Boat?
Interesting hobbies Bob.
Best of luck on you head gasketry. You are thinking it through nicely.

[Sidecar Bob]

Actually, I'm not involved in anything RC so far. That is for the 2nd project that is scheduled for after Mr.H is on the road (the first is doing all the stuff Eccles needs so I don't have to rush it in the fall). 8 years ago my neighbour Lee built this from an old electric wheelchair, a walk behind mower and some radio control parts.


Last year he bought a robot mower so he gave me the RC one. It needs a bit of clean up & fix up (probably the carb cleaned &c) and new batteries and one of the welds has cracked but it looks like most of it will be pretty straightforward. I'm hoping social distancing will be eased a bit by the time I get to it so Lee can come over and coach me a bit.

BTW: I meant to mention in my last post that because the old gaskets didn't stick and the gray goo from them was so soft, cleaning up the mating surfaces was very, very easy. I probably spent more time trying to get a pic that showed how much cleaner the block looks after stoning than I actually spent on my knees rubbing it with the stone

[77Gowing]

One of my best friends built a "Mowbot" using the same wheel chair motors and batteries. It works great.
I'm learning from ya Bob, keep at it. I find I'm most of the time in over my head but the challenge is the attraction.
Like a moth to a flame! LoL

[Sidecar Bob]

We are in the middle of a heat warning in Southern Ontario (seniors warned to stay indoors) so things have been moving slowly around here. I put the heads on (& all the other stuff needed to start it) on Thursday but by the time that was done I was beat so I didn't start it until Friday.
It was running in this pic. You'll notice that the rad is overflowing slightly (rad neck full, puddle on floor) but as soon as I blipped the throttle the level dropped to where I could barely see it and stayed there (not surprising - it was too hot to shake the bike enough to get all the bubbles out when I filled it).

Warming up.JPG (134.07 KiB) Viewed 253 times

A minute or so later the fan came on and I decided it was warmed up enough so I shut it off, rolled it back into the garage, topped the rad up to about half an inch below the cap and put the cap on (this is a test - if it doesn't so it would draw some coolant back from the tank as it cools there is a leak).

The level in the tank was down about half an inch on Saturday so I re-torqued the bolts. Most of the bolts ended up right where they were when I started and none had significant movement. Even though I didn't disturb the valvetrain and I last adjusted them about 1000 Km ago I checked the clearances; Only 2 needed adjustment and those not much.

I went for a short drive today (about 13 Km/8mi)(did I mention the heat?) with a couple of 110 Km/h blasts and a block at about 12-14 (behind a dump truck when I went to look at the construction on the new road next to ours) and the only time the fan came on was in that slow uphill block. The coolant in the tank was about 1/4" higher when I got home than when I left, which I figure is just about perfect.

I hope these gaskets hold up better than the last ones....

[pidjones]

Hope it is the end of this problem for you.

[Sidecar Bob]

So do I. I checked a while ago; The engine was still slightly warm and the level in the tank was still well above the lower line (perfect).

I feel much better about using genuine Honda gaskets. I have never had much luck with aftermarket head gaskets in any of the bikes I've owned.