Starter beginning to drag a bit.

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John Schmidt
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Starter beginning to drag a bit.

#1

Post by John Schmidt »

Full charge on the battery(about 2 yrs. old), never fails to start but seems to work too hard to turn over. Sometimes I'll get a bit of overrun when the motor starts, only 1-2 seconds but noticeable. The engine is out of an '85 FI bike that was converted to carbs, has ~43k on it. I'm assuming it's time for a rebuild on the starter so are there any names of preferred suppliers out there, I noticed on Ebay kits running from $16 up to near $70 but different named suppliers. I have an '84 starter that works great but I'm told that won't work with anything but an '84 motor. Is it the motor itself or just the gear/spline on the front?
1984 GL1200 Standard, work in progress
1998 Valkyrie Tourer, my Honda Davidson ;) Image
Shadowjack
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Re: Starter beginning to drag a bit.

#2

Post by Shadowjack »

'84 is unique. The shape of the gear housing is different from '85-up and you can't get it into place; I have had both here at once and I've tried. I never tried to swap just the gear housing; I don't know if they bolt up or not. Once you get it open that far you may just as well do the rebuild.
I bought a $35 kit to repair mine; the endcap bushing was worn so bad it would hardly turn, and the commutator was choked with carbon debris. Once I cleaned it and replaced the bushing, nothing else was needed, although I changed everything because it was included. The bushing is NOT available separately.
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jdvorchak
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Re: Starter beginning to drag a bit.

#3

Post by jdvorchak »

The only parts I've ever used on starters is new brushes. I think I did a write up in the HOW TO section detailing how I restored the starter on my 84 1200. There is more to it than just replacing a few parts. The biggest thing is to clean it.
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Previous bikes: 84 GL1200 STD, 83 KZ550LTD, 83 CB1000, 78 CB400A, 82 CB900F, 79 CB750K, 2001 GL1800, 2000 Dyna Super Glide, 1972 CB350 K4, 1985 GL1200A, 1997 1200 Sportster, 84 GL1200I, 82 Honda CM400E, 81 Suzuki GS650L, 72 Triumph Bonneville 750, 72 Honda CB350, 66(?) Honda 305 Scrambler, 6? Yamaha yz250, 62 650 Matchless (Norton-Villers).
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UPDATE.....Re: Starter beginning to drag a bit.

#4

Post by John Schmidt »

OK, got the rebuild kit and finally this evening went about pulling the starter. I tried both methods for a 1200 listed in the How To link, to no avail. Link: http://goldwingdocs.com/How-To-Articles.asp
Finally quit messing with it and dropped the header and still lacked sufficient room to clear the engine guard that bolts to the bottom engine mount that goes all the way through to the other side. It was obvious I only needed a fraction of an inch and the biggest road block aside from the engine guard appeared to be the inside exhaust stud on #4. A few months back when I changed out the engine I tested all the studs to be certain they were seated and eventually backed all but one out and cleaned the threads, followed with some anti seize. I figured why not double nut it and see if it's still able to be backed out....which it was. Once out, I reached up to attempt removing the starter and soon as I bumped it with my hand it literally fell on the pad I was laying on. I had already pulled it out of the engine/gear so was pleasantly surprised with the ease with which it fell out. Next problem, two of the three long bolts holding the casing together would not budge. I even tried using my hand held impact wrench and a few good raps with a hammer...no joy. So, out comes the can of PB Blaster, set the starter upright loosely in the vice, a couple good squirts on each end of those bolts and we'll see what tomorrow brings. I had already pulled the gear cone off and was immediately met with a burned smell, plus the grease was hardened so it looks(and smells) like pulling the starter was a good move. I'll update in the coming days on what I find, might even take a couple pictures along the way.
1984 GL1200 Standard, work in progress
1998 Valkyrie Tourer, my Honda Davidson ;) Image
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Rednaxs60
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Re: Starter beginning to drag a bit.

#5

Post by Rednaxs60 »

Had the issue with the starter long bolts as well. Took a pair of vice grips and clamped the vice grips as close as possible to the threaded end as possible. They came loose. Recommend this when you do yours.

Cheers
"When writing the Story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen."

Ernest

1985 GL1200 Limited Edition
2014 Can-Am Spyder RT LE
2021 Royal Enfield Himalayan
1995 GL1500 SE CDN Edition (sold)
2012 Suzuki DL1000 VStrom (sold)
Ontario 1985 GL1200 Limited Edition (sold)
2008 GL1800 (sold)
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John Schmidt
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Re: Starter beginning to drag a bit.

#6

Post by John Schmidt »

Thanks Red, I'm letting them soak tonight and will try that approach in the morning. They probably have been in there since it was manufactured.
1984 GL1200 Standard, work in progress
1998 Valkyrie Tourer, my Honda Davidson ;) Image
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John Schmidt
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Re: Starter beginning to drag a bit.

#7

Post by John Schmidt »

An aggravating issue has popped up. It definitely needed a good cleaning and new brushes, and the commutator needed a good polishing. Got it back together except for the nose cone with the gears in it, hooked it up to the battery and it spun up great. It was sluggish before even after I removed it from the bike and set it on the floor, the rpm would pick up slowly until it was spinning good. Now without the gear section on it, it snaps into high rpm as it should. Only one problem, the gasket that goes between the nose cone and the body is out of shape and it appears they're no longer available. Plus, I can't seem to draw down that nose/gear section even enough so it's seated all the way around. My first question is....do I really need that gasket? Second....the 3 screws holding the gear piece on the body are real difficult to turn and as luck would have it, that particular size is the one that snapped recently so I can't tap it to freshen the threads. This seems to be part of the reason I can't get the gear section to pull down evenly. It binds the shaft and the starter won't turn. I've messed with this fool thing for the last few hours and it's the only thing keeping the job from being done. Any suggestions? As for that gasket, is it possible to just use some gasket maker goop in there in place of it?
1984 GL1200 Standard, work in progress
1998 Valkyrie Tourer, my Honda Davidson ;) Image
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Rednaxs60
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Re: Starter beginning to drag a bit.

#8

Post by Rednaxs60 »

The o-ring is to keep water out, check with your local hydraulic shop and it should have one very close to what you need.

When I did mine, there is a small pin in the end you are working on. Has to be lined up. Here is a picture:
Starter Driving Gears - Cover Pin.jpg
Starter Driving Gears - Cover Pin.jpg (78.88 KiB) Viewed 194 times
Second picture on cover:

Caught this by accident. Had the same issue and was lucky not to lose the little pin.

Hope this helps. Cheers
"When writing the Story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen."

Ernest

1985 GL1200 Limited Edition
2014 Can-Am Spyder RT LE
2021 Royal Enfield Himalayan
1995 GL1500 SE CDN Edition (sold)
2012 Suzuki DL1000 VStrom (sold)
Ontario 1985 GL1200 Limited Edition (sold)
2008 GL1800 (sold)
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John Schmidt
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Re: Starter beginning to drag a bit.

#9

Post by John Schmidt »

Yes, I have that little pin in place, I just can't seem to draw the gear section down onto the body. The screws go in part way then get real hard to turn....even without the gear section sitting on it. Rather strange, just turning the screws in by themselves and they become difficult. Think tomorrow I'll go pick up a new tap and see if running that in makes a difference. As mentioned, I broke that size tap a while back and never replaced it, lesson learned. :roll:

To make my day even more perfect(NOT), my new(used) seat was delivered today. In the pictures on Ebay it was black as coal, when I opened the box....it's dark brown. The seat is in great condition but not what I expected and sure doesn't go with my black/silver bike. Haven't decided whether to return it or rip the cover off and by a replacement in black. That, along with the starter reassemble problem made for a really sucky day. That's not counting jamming a phillips head bit into the base of my left thumb nail. censored2
1984 GL1200 Standard, work in progress
1998 Valkyrie Tourer, my Honda Davidson ;) Image
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Rednaxs60
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Re: Starter beginning to drag a bit.

#10

Post by Rednaxs60 »

Running a small tap should do the trick. Curious, did you use the vice grip method I used?

Here's a seat covering from a business in Canada, black only. May fit the bill. Good exchange rate right now - for you, not us.

https://www.kijiji.ca/v-motorcycle-part ... nFlag=true

Cheers
"When writing the Story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen."

Ernest

1985 GL1200 Limited Edition
2014 Can-Am Spyder RT LE
2021 Royal Enfield Himalayan
1995 GL1500 SE CDN Edition (sold)
2012 Suzuki DL1000 VStrom (sold)
Ontario 1985 GL1200 Limited Edition (sold)
2008 GL1800 (sold)
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John Schmidt
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Re: Starter beginning to drag a bit.

#11

Post by John Schmidt »

Yes, I had to use the vise grip on two of the long bolts, even that took some effort. Worked the bolt back/forth a bit and it finally broke loose. I found some new screws for the gear section and tried a couple more times to pull that piece down onto the body. Once down, it won't spin up so something is binding in that area not allowing the motor to turn, yet the spacing between the body and the gear section is even all the way around. I'm about done messing with it, have to figure out what I'm going to do with the seat. The cover in your link cost more than the seat did. Re. the starter....for some reason the gear section just doesn't seem to line up like it should...talking about the holes for the screws lining up with the body. I've never had such an issue with anything like this in the past, can't help but wonder if that may have been part of the problem with the starter from the beginning. Two of the long body bolts were bent and a couple of the gear section screws were buggered so I'm guessing it had been torn down sometime in the past. Anyway, I'm thinking I'm done with it and will go look for a replacement. I'll try something a few dozen times then toss it and walk away. This starter falls in that category, just not worth the aggravation beyond a certain point.
1984 GL1200 Standard, work in progress
1998 Valkyrie Tourer, my Honda Davidson ;) Image
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Rednaxs60
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Re: Starter beginning to drag a bit.

#12

Post by Rednaxs60 »

Have one more query - when you took the starter apart did you match mark the casing(s)? Have read where this can make a difference.
"When writing the Story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen."

Ernest

1985 GL1200 Limited Edition
2014 Can-Am Spyder RT LE
2021 Royal Enfield Himalayan
1995 GL1500 SE CDN Edition (sold)
2012 Suzuki DL1000 VStrom (sold)
Ontario 1985 GL1200 Limited Edition (sold)
2008 GL1800 (sold)
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John Schmidt
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Re: Starter beginning to drag a bit.

#13

Post by John Schmidt »

Most definitely, I use white out that's used when typing, plus the casing and end pieces were already marked at some point earlier by someone else. If you leave the gear end portion off, it spins up great when you attach cables from the battery. It just seems the gear end part is the problem and I've had the entire motor apart numerous times, you can turn the armature by hand without the gear end section mounted. I have no idea what the issue is at this point so after trying all afternoon I'm quitting.
1984 GL1200 Standard, work in progress
1998 Valkyrie Tourer, my Honda Davidson ;) Image
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John Schmidt
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Re: Starter beginning to drag a bit.

#14

Post by John Schmidt »

Well, today it was a success. The wife was too sick for me to leave the house so figured what-the-hey, give it one more try. I was already bored so wanted to try something constructive....hopefully. First I removed the little alignment pin and the gasket, the parts will only fit one way as it is so the pin isn't all that important. I hadn't mentioned it before but getting all the gears and the motor shaft to mesh has been the biggest problem, I don't know what I did right but the first try this afternoon it all slipped into place. The three holes lined up for the screws that attach the gear assembly to the body, before I could get two to line up and the third was always off center so the bolt wouldn't go in. I did run a tap down through the threads prior to all this, everything screwed in real easy then. As it turned out, after getting it all together finally I used some bike jumper cables to test it and it worked perfect. Next, I got out my tube of hi-temp RTV make a gasket and ran a bead all the way around the mating surfaces, ran my finger along the bead to press it in and did it again. It ain't going to be leaking any time soon....if at all. Took a few minutes to get everything back together, turned on the gas, hooked up the battery, hit the start button and what a difference. One short pop of the start button and it's running, before it was a real drag. As Vorchak stated, the main thing I did was clean. I replaced the brushes and polished the commutator, replaced the hardened grease and put it together. The grease was the consistency of congealed cooking grease after you pour it off and let it harden. Now, it's on to pulling the radiator for cleaning by a local shop, flush the block, replace the t'stat and fan thermo switch. After that, I just want to ride the fool thing for awhile before selling it....still need a seat though, that's a WIP!
Last edited by John Schmidt on Sun Oct 08, 2017 2:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1984 GL1200 Standard, work in progress
1998 Valkyrie Tourer, my Honda Davidson ;) Image
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salukispeed
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Re: Starter beginning to drag a bit.

#15

Post by salukispeed »

Good you stayed with it and it worked out
Honda 72 CL100 sold
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1970 CT 70
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