Piston in honing - advice before I start?

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Sidecar Bob
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Piston in honing - advice before I start?

#1

Post by Sidecar Bob »

Like the title says: I want to hone the cylinders without removing the pistons and I want advice from those who have.

In all my years of working on my own bikes I have never honed a cylinder before but there was a bit of rust in a couple of the cylinders and after I cleaned it out and can just feel where it was with a fingernail so I guess I need to now. And I don't want to take this engine apart any more than I already have so I need to do it with the pistons in the cylinders.

I plan to start by masking off the water jacket and putting a plastic bag over the rest of the engine to keep the dirt out of it but how can I keep bits of grit & debris from getting between the piston & the cylinder?
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Re: Piston in honing - advice before I start?

#2

Post by Whiskerfish »

I have never done it like that but I have an idea. May be a bit far fetched?? I would clean the cylinder wall and with the piston at BDC put a bead of silicone caulk around the edge of the piston sealing it to the wall. Let it cure and then run your hone. When done clean the cylinder and hopefully the caulk should just peel off in one piece.

Like I said i have never done it but I have used silicone caulk before for similar things.
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Re: Piston in honing - advice before I start?

#3

Post by Rat »

They make a 'dry strippable' silicon caulking that might do the job ....

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Re: Piston in honing - advice before I start?

#4

Post by CYBORG »

I would be concerned about how much the cyl needed honing. Your rings, which actually contact the wall of the cyl. are below the top of the piston, and can not be cleaned up without removing the pistons. And you would run the risk of creating ridge in the cyl. just above the top of the piston. Unless your area of concern is near the top of the cyl, I would pull the pistons, and do it right ;)
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Re: Piston in honing - advice before I start?

#5

Post by jdvorchak »

Personally I would run the bike a hundred miles and re-inspect. My guess is that the rust ring will disappear. No matter how you run the hone you will only hone the top part of the cylinder walls. In my mind a half honed cylinder is probably worse than not touching them at all. Those rings have seated themselves to the existing cylinder walls and any change you make, by honing will force the rings to try to re-seat.

Just my 2 cents worth.
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Re: Piston in honing - advice before I start?

#6

Post by Sidecar Bob »

Sorry, I forgot to mention that the area that needs honing is near the top in both of the cylinders that need it, starting right next to the area that is covered with carbon and about a cm or less in from there.
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Re: Piston in honing - advice before I start?

#7

Post by jdvorchak »

If that's all there is I'd use some emery cloth and your finger to smooth the rusted area. Wipe up the residue with an oily rag and call it a day. Or pull the cylinders, fit a new set of rings and do it right.
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Re: Piston in honing - advice before I start?

#8

Post by Sidecar Bob »

Here are a couple of other threads that describe honing with the piston in. My cylinders don't look nearly as bad as the ones in these threads.
https://www.ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic ... 70#p586589
CYBORG wrote:i would lower the piston in the bad cyl., and run a hone into it as far as possible, and see how well it cleans up. i have done that with engines, and have them work well. it will depend on how bad the rust is. from the pictures i would say you will wind up with a runner
but no mention of keeping the grit out of the rings or how to clean up.

https://www.ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic ... 8&p=466190
sproutroot wrote:Honed both #1 and #3. There wasn't enough room for plumber's putty, it would've made a big mess. Instead, I used TONS of hot, soapy water after honing, then some MMO.
I'm wondering if I shouldn't just go for it and flush them out with Tool & Parts Cleaner when I'm done...
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Re: Piston in honing - advice before I start?

#9

Post by flyin900 »

If you want to try the hone I cannot offer any pros and cons there since I have no real knowledge of the upside or downside of doing the procedure, yet I can offer a suggestion on sealing the ring area.

I would rotate the piston to BDC and then raise it back up the cylinder about 1/4" and seal the area around the piston with a grease from a squeeze tube type applicator that you can apply easily around the gap. Hone away on the upper portion to just remove the rust remnants and no more.

Retract the piston back to BDC and wipe out the grease and any grit trapped in there and then tilt the cylinder/engine block downward slightly and spray brake cleaner all around the piston crown while allowing the excess cleaner to drain out the top of the cylinder opening.

I have never tried this procedure, yet it should offer a secure way to trap any small particles and offer a way to make sure the cylinder and rings don't become contaminated with particles and not leaving any sealant behind.
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Re: Piston in honing - advice before I start?

#10

Post by salukispeed »

No matter what you will not likely be able to hone it enough to get any and all rust removed. Unless crusty/raised rust, The rust is actually a pit or depression that will not touch the rings since it would be microns below the surface. If you caulk the piston at/near BDC with grease use 400 emery and a straight block curved to match the cylinder radius you can mimic the desired 45 deg cross hatch and remove just the peaks to allow a friendly surface for the rings to touch . You can likely never remove enough to eliminate it all. I have seen quite a few engines with water damage that run fine and after some run time they work fine. Just do not create a dip or low spot as the rings can not follow that. . Small pits may even carbon up and fill in a tiny bit over time. Absolutely do not wire brush the surface as this will make any depressions even deeper. My toyota had a junk yard motor in it and was pretty badly rusted at and above above the rings from water ( Head gasket ) and after trying this I ended up with 1 quart in 3,000 miles oil consumption and after 130,000 more miles it was still running strong. Just an opinion!
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Re: Piston in honing - advice before I start?

#11

Post by gltriker »

I agree with the logic of, Just Leave It Alone.
When you start removing any material with a "hone", the desirable clearance between the complementing parts is increased and there is no benefit from having done so. ;)
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Re: Piston in honing - advice before I start?

#12

Post by ericheath »

No opinion about honing or not. When notching the pistons on my hybrids, the first I used grease and there is merit to flying900's suggestion of a little up from BDC. Of course mine was done at TDC. I wiped clean then sprayed the snot out of it with brake cleaner.

I dressed the top of the block once with glass and sandpaper. I used modeling clay. I put the cylinders in the middle of the stroke and formed a half inch wide bed of clay around the diameter of the piston. Then I smeared grease. Not sure if that would be appropriate with honing because you wouldn't get to the bottom, but you aren't getting there anyways. It seemed to work best for ensuring debris stayed clear of the rings and allowed better cleanup. The clay will pull out easily if you don't mash it in there.
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Re: Piston in honing - advice before I start?

#13

Post by JBz »

my experience is any rust that's been sitting for a while leads to stuck piston rings. Some people say they will loosen up after running but that hasn't been my experience. Im with Cyborg on this one. JB
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Re: Piston in honing - advice before I start?

#14

Post by Sidecar Bob »

I think the rings should be OK because the pistons in the cylinders with the rust were near the bottom and the rust is near the tops of the cylinders.

I also like Flyin's suggestion about the just above BDC and grease. I currently have the rear cover off (the gasket showed signs of oil seepage and I wanted to remove the pulser shaft) so I want to put that back together first. With any luck I'll hone tomorrow. I will take before & after pics.
Mr. Honda ('83 GL1100/Dnepr) summer How a motorcycle evolves thread
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Click: Colour schematics for all GL1000 & GL1100 and GL1200 standard models plus instructions on how to download the full size version
"A guy with two sidecars can't be all bad." - Cookie
Another guy with two sidecars..... Hmmmm... must be something to that....
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Re: Piston in honing - advice before I start?

#15

Post by Sidecar Bob »

My buddy with more experience looked at it and says I shouldn't hone so I am not going to. I have started a thread for this project and posted pics there Mr.H's new engine

While we were looking at it we noticed that 3 of the pistons are flush with the mating surface at TDC but the other is not (see pic in post #5 of that thread). Is that normal or do I have a problem? (Please answer in the other thread so it will all be together)
Mr. Honda ('83 GL1100/Dnepr) summer How a motorcycle evolves thread
The Famous Eccles ('84 CX650EI/VeloUral) winter Never Ending Build (CX500forum)
Click: Colour schematics for all GL1000 & GL1100 and GL1200 standard models plus instructions on how to download the full size version
"A guy with two sidecars can't be all bad." - Cookie
Another guy with two sidecars..... Hmmmm... must be something to that....
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