Am I doing something wrong? Headgasket/Head Bolt Questions Inside

Discuss everything about Honda GoldWing. Feel free to ask any question related to GoldWing.

Moderators: CYBORG, Oldewing, robin1731, Forum Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
propav8r
Billet Alum. Member
Billet Alum. Member
Posts: 282
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2016 5:00 pm
Location: Franklin, NC

Am I doing something wrong? Headgasket/Head Bolt Questions Inside

#1

Post by propav8r »

Hi all, sorry for the wall of text, but strap in...

To get everyone up to speed on my issues, I recently rebuilt my '78 GL1000. During the process, I noticed that the right side exhaust manifold had some moisture in it, and one of the plugs was white. Classic blown head gasket symptoms.

At that point (January), I replaced both head gaskets with Athena gaskets. I re-used the head bolts. The gaskets that I took off of the motor were not OEM. Dunno what they were, but they looked like a different composition that the OE Honda gasket that'll enter later in this story.

Anyhow, I did both head gaskets the first time, cleaned the block and heads well, and torqued everything to spec using Randakk's instructions. Buttoned it up, and it started on the first crank and ran great for a couple weeks.

I then began to notice a bit of grungy crap in the rad neck/expansion tank. I chalked this up to the previous blown head gasket crap working its way out.

As time progressed, I started getting puffs of white smoke from the RIGHT side on warm startup, escalating eventually to steam exiting the right pipe on hot shutdown, and hard warm starting. Blown head gasket.

So, I disassembled everything. I noticed that the middle head bolt on the bottom row wasn't as tight as the other 5. It wasn't finger-tight, just not as tight as the others. I chalked the blown head gasket to me missing the final torque step on that bolt. I also replaced that cylinder head, since there was some corrosion in the fire ring area I wasn't thrilled with.

I cleaned everything, and put it back together with an OEM Honda head gasket on that (the right) side, again re-using head bolts on that side. Started up, ran great, no more grunge in the radiator. I ran straight water for a bit so I could make sure everything was in good shape before I poured $20 worth of coolant in the bike.

I even rode it to Charlotte and back (about a 400 mile round trip) without a hitch. This brings us to Monday. Tuesday, I took the bike to work and stopped for gas on the way home. When I cranked it, I saw the tiniest puff of white smoke from the left side. I talked myself into believing it was just condensation/temperature difference. After all, it was cold and drizzly.

Yesterday, I rode to and from work again. Again, the bike did fine, no indication of any issues. Last night, I got home, and drained the warm coolant from the drain bolt, flushed the system, and refilled it with blue coolant.

Here's where it gets interesting:

I cranked the bike and let it warm up. I wanted to see the fan cycle a few times. First fan cycle: great. Second fan cycle: great. Third fan cycle: it wouldn't turn off.

The temp needle moved down to about 1/4 of the gauge, but the fan didn't go off. Even with the fan running constantly, the gauge began to creep up a little bit towards the middle. I knew something wasn't right.

I shut the motor off, and saw steam curling out of the LEFT exhaust pipe! Cranked it again, and it was blowing huge bubbles into the expansion tank and a big cloud of steam blew out the left side.

Another failed gasket!

So, if you've stayed with me for this long, here are the questions:

First: I have re-used head bolts on both sides of the bike now. In addition, I know the bolts were re-used at least once by the previous owner. It's not like me to skip a head bolt in a tightening sequence, I'm pretty meticulous about that sort of thing. I'm wondering if the loose bolt on the RIGHT side didn't loosen up because of stretch.

I read somewhere that the bolts are reusable, but at this point, should a hunt a set of new head bolts?

Second: I've ordered an OEM gasket for the left side. Are the Athena gaskets really that bad? I'm just surprised I've had two failures in such a short time.

Third: I've read the replacement procedures very carefully and followed all the steps. The only thing I haven't done is had the heads resurfaced at a machine shop. I've used a sheet of 180 grit sandpaper secured to a flat/true table saw bed, and pushed the head back and forth a few times. Not enough to take aluminum off, just enough to clean the gunk off the sealing surface and get a good finish on it. I've used this method sucessfully on many automotive cylinder heads over the years. To clean the block, I use 3M Roloc discs on a die grinder. It gets the gasket crap off, but isn't aggressive enough to eat into the aluminum.
Image
User avatar
Whiskerfish
President
President
Posts: 36852
Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2006 9:34 pm
My Album: http://www.ngwclub.com/gallery/v/wingmans/whiskerfish/
Location: Norfolk Va

Re: Am I doing something wrong? Headgasket/Head Bolt Questions Inside

#2

Post by Whiskerfish »

These are rather large bolts for 40 odd foot pounds of torque. I have never before heard of any issues with them stretching so I am doubtful there is an issue with them. I have never used anything but OEM head gaskets just based on the recommendations from this and other groups. Always had a 2 hour rule. If it takes me more than 2 hours to replace then I will use OEM if possible.

Are you greasing the bolt threads and the washers? https://www.ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic ... 925#p61925
"Agreement is not a requirement for Respect" CDR Michael Smith USN (Ret) 2017
"The book is wrong, this whole Conclusion is Fallacious" River Tam
2008 GL1800 IIIA "TH3DOG"
1975/6/7/8/9 Arthur Fulmer Dressed Road bike
1975 Naked Noisy and Nasty in town bike
and a whole garage full of possibilities!!

Psst. oh and by the way CHANGE YOUR BELTS!!!!
User avatar
propav8r
Billet Alum. Member
Billet Alum. Member
Posts: 282
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2016 5:00 pm
Location: Franklin, NC

Re: Am I doing something wrong? Headgasket/Head Bolt Questions Inside

#3

Post by propav8r »

Whiskerfish wrote:These are rather large bolts for 40 odd foot pounds of torque. I have never before heard of any issues with them stretching so I am doubtful there is an issue with them. I have never used anything but OEM head gaskets just based on the recommendations from this and other groups. Always had a 2 hour rule. If it takes me more than 2 hours to replace then I will use OEM if possible.

Are you greasing the bolt threads and the washers? https://www.ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic ... 925#p61925
Yeah, I thought the same thing about the torque spec for the bolts. The head bolts Volvo redblocks use are also 10mm, and those suckers take 45ft/lbs plus a 90* angle tightening after that! Granted, it's an aluminum head on a cast iron block, but still.

And yeah, I used a few drops of oil on the threads and on the washers.
Image
User avatar
ericheath
Honored Life Member
Honored Life Member
Posts: 9580
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:20 am
Location: Winnipeg, Manituba

Re: Am I doing something wrong? Headgasket/Head Bolt Questions Inside

#4

Post by ericheath »

I hate to break it to you, because I'm not real knowledgeable but a Roloc can easily take a few thousandths off if not very careful. Having succumbed to a few head failures ( the bike not me) I now check mine with a straightedge. It's the only way to know what you're dealing with. My recent post is of a block which was low 0.010" at the lower bolt. I use glass and sandpaper if a shop doesn't do it.

I'm going to suggest checking your block for flatness. You shouldn't be able to get a 0.002" feeler gauge under it- anywhere.
Whatever I suggest here should be given ample time for a moderator to delicately correct. I apologize in advance.
77 WING, 1200 engine with 77 heads, cams, gl1100 foot pegs, Magna V65 front end, 764A carbs, [-gone Suzuki M109 monoshock--, replaced with gl1100 shocks] gl 1200 swing arm, gl1500 final drive, wheel and rear brakes Valkyrie seat, Meanstreak tank, Sportster pipes, Power Arc ignition off crank.
77 Wing. black
83 Wing, in pieces
"Continuing education is important even if the subject matter is fairly useless (as in this case)."---Greg Foresi
User avatar
propav8r
Billet Alum. Member
Billet Alum. Member
Posts: 282
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2016 5:00 pm
Location: Franklin, NC

Re: Am I doing something wrong? Headgasket/Head Bolt Questions Inside

#5

Post by propav8r »

You've gotta get pretty hamfisted with a roloc to take metal off. I'll check the block, but I did that last time and it was fine.
Image
User avatar
ericheath
Honored Life Member
Honored Life Member
Posts: 9580
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:20 am
Location: Winnipeg, Manituba

Re: Am I doing something wrong? Headgasket/Head Bolt Questions Inside

#6

Post by ericheath »

I know, I eat too much ham. I've found paint remover softens them up quickly and I now prefer a razor carefully slicing it off.
Whatever I suggest here should be given ample time for a moderator to delicately correct. I apologize in advance.
77 WING, 1200 engine with 77 heads, cams, gl1100 foot pegs, Magna V65 front end, 764A carbs, [-gone Suzuki M109 monoshock--, replaced with gl1100 shocks] gl 1200 swing arm, gl1500 final drive, wheel and rear brakes Valkyrie seat, Meanstreak tank, Sportster pipes, Power Arc ignition off crank.
77 Wing. black
83 Wing, in pieces
"Continuing education is important even if the subject matter is fairly useless (as in this case)."---Greg Foresi
User avatar
salukispeed
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Posts: 1951
Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:08 am
Location: Oak Forest Illinois US

Re: Am I doing something wrong? Headgasket/Head Bolt Questions Inside

#7

Post by salukispeed »

I did not notice if you chased the threads in the block to make extra sure there is nothing in them all the way to the bottom. Any carbon or debris or roughness in the threads can take up some of the twisting torque effort and this limits the actual clamping force yet feels correct on the torque wrench. This can result in the symptom you found with a bolt not being correct torque upon disassembly. The flatness of both surfaces is so critical and so is the condition of the threads of the bolt and the hole.
Honda 72 CL100 sold
74 CB750 K4 nice driver
1966 CA77/305 Dream nostalgic driver
84 GL1200I work in progress
1970 CT 70
1982 GL500 Interstate
User avatar
propav8r
Billet Alum. Member
Billet Alum. Member
Posts: 282
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2016 5:00 pm
Location: Franklin, NC

Re: Am I doing something wrong? Headgasket/Head Bolt Questions Inside

#8

Post by propav8r »

salukispeed wrote:I did not notice if you chased the threads in the block to make extra sure there is nothing in them all the way to the bottom. Any carbon or debris or roughness in the threads can take up some of the twisting torque effort and this limits the actual clamping force yet feels correct on the torque wrench. This can result in the symptom you found with a bolt not being correct torque upon disassembly. The flatness of both surfaces is so critical and so is the condition of the threads of the bolt and the hole.
Yep, cleaned the threads.

Image
Image
User avatar
Whiskerfish
President
President
Posts: 36852
Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2006 9:34 pm
My Album: http://www.ngwclub.com/gallery/v/wingmans/whiskerfish/
Location: Norfolk Va

Re: Am I doing something wrong? Headgasket/Head Bolt Questions Inside

#9

Post by Whiskerfish »

Many different grades of Roloc's used for different purposes. Some will definitely eat aluminum and some will hardly touch paint. When I was working the Helicopter overhaul line we would use Roloc's after they came out of the media blast booth the clean up around the rivet heads and under the areas that were taped off.
"Agreement is not a requirement for Respect" CDR Michael Smith USN (Ret) 2017
"The book is wrong, this whole Conclusion is Fallacious" River Tam
2008 GL1800 IIIA "TH3DOG"
1975/6/7/8/9 Arthur Fulmer Dressed Road bike
1975 Naked Noisy and Nasty in town bike
and a whole garage full of possibilities!!

Psst. oh and by the way CHANGE YOUR BELTS!!!!
User avatar
propav8r
Billet Alum. Member
Billet Alum. Member
Posts: 282
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2016 5:00 pm
Location: Franklin, NC

Re: Am I doing something wrong? Headgasket/Head Bolt Questions Inside

#10

Post by propav8r »

Whiskerfish wrote:Many different grades of Roloc's used for different purposes. Some will definitely eat aluminum and some will hardly touch paint. When I was working the Helicopter overhaul line we would use Roloc's after they came out of the media blast booth the clean up around the rivet heads and under the areas that were taped off.
I use the white bristle rolocs, not the sanding discs. Not saying you can't take material off the block with them, but it would be hard to.
Image
User avatar
05c50
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 1380
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 11:05 pm
Location: Greensburg, Pa
Contact:

Re: Am I doing something wrong? Headgasket/Head Bolt Questions Inside

#11

Post by 05c50 »

Just a thought, and maybe you've already checked, but after you chased the threads in the block, did you verify that the bolts will smoothly thread all the way into the hole? Might be some debris in the bottom restricting the bolt from going completely in and giving you a false torque reading.

...Paul
I prefer to ride my wing naked,thank you
My wife asked me "How many bikes does one man need?" My answer "Uhhh.just one more"
75 Goldwing
78 Goldwing
77 CB750a
77 CB550f
80 CB650c
05 Boule C50
Post Reply
  • Similar Topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post

Return to “GoldWing Tech Discussions”