Help: Runs worse after timing
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- groupus
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- Location: Lancaster Pa, USA, Earth, Solar System, Milky Way
Help: Runs worse after timing
So let me lay out the specifics here:
completely stock '79 full fairing gl1000 in great condition, 27k miles, sat since '92, many parts replaced by PO in '06 but never started or run. I have done proper long layup procedure to lube things and break the rings loose.
What I did:
New belts, battery, regulator/rectifier, spark plugs gapped, new head gaskets, cam seals, valve seals, valves lapped, valve lash set, new points, and a water pump. All electrical connections cleaned and greased, blade type main fuse. Tank is cleaned with electrolysis, new fuel lines, fuel filter, fuel pump is strong.
The carbs are rebuilt gl1100 carbs that I took off of my other '78 gl1000 custom bike. They are meticulously cleaned and polished with all new gaskets, bench synced, idle screws adjusted to 2.25 turns out for the '79. Not ideal for a 1000, but on the other bike, these carbs ran like a raped ape, a blast to ride. I do have the correct gl1000 carbs that I am working on rebuilding with a full Randakk kit, but in the mean time these carbs are installed to test ride while I get ready for a long trip in less than 3 weeks.
This bike is dead off idle, and although better at speed, it still seems under-powered compared to what I am used to. It idles not so great, but when I take off from a stop, it really chugs and wants to die. It's like a bad version of the "off Idle" problem (but that only applies to '75-77 bikes and carbs). I reset the points gap to .0016 and timed it yesterday, which took forever, but now it is worse. Like it idles lower and starts thrashing and chugging a lot as I let the clutch out. Higher RPMs still seem ok, if I can make it there.
I am going to re-check everything again today, but assuming it is still in spec, what do I do? Do I set timing more advanced? reduce the points gap? Would a Dyna ignition be a silver bullet cure? I'm at my wits' end with this thing.
completely stock '79 full fairing gl1000 in great condition, 27k miles, sat since '92, many parts replaced by PO in '06 but never started or run. I have done proper long layup procedure to lube things and break the rings loose.
What I did:
New belts, battery, regulator/rectifier, spark plugs gapped, new head gaskets, cam seals, valve seals, valves lapped, valve lash set, new points, and a water pump. All electrical connections cleaned and greased, blade type main fuse. Tank is cleaned with electrolysis, new fuel lines, fuel filter, fuel pump is strong.
The carbs are rebuilt gl1100 carbs that I took off of my other '78 gl1000 custom bike. They are meticulously cleaned and polished with all new gaskets, bench synced, idle screws adjusted to 2.25 turns out for the '79. Not ideal for a 1000, but on the other bike, these carbs ran like a raped ape, a blast to ride. I do have the correct gl1000 carbs that I am working on rebuilding with a full Randakk kit, but in the mean time these carbs are installed to test ride while I get ready for a long trip in less than 3 weeks.
This bike is dead off idle, and although better at speed, it still seems under-powered compared to what I am used to. It idles not so great, but when I take off from a stop, it really chugs and wants to die. It's like a bad version of the "off Idle" problem (but that only applies to '75-77 bikes and carbs). I reset the points gap to .0016 and timed it yesterday, which took forever, but now it is worse. Like it idles lower and starts thrashing and chugging a lot as I let the clutch out. Higher RPMs still seem ok, if I can make it there.
I am going to re-check everything again today, but assuming it is still in spec, what do I do? Do I set timing more advanced? reduce the points gap? Would a Dyna ignition be a silver bullet cure? I'm at my wits' end with this thing.
Faster, faster, faster, until the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death. ~Hunter Thompson
every now and then, when things are not going to well in the shop, i ask myself why i do it. and the answer is that riding is good....but time in the shop is also good. - CYBORG
78 gl1000 cafe build: http://ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=51461
79 full fairing - current status: Haunted http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=60334
every now and then, when things are not going to well in the shop, i ask myself why i do it. and the answer is that riding is good....but time in the shop is also good. - CYBORG
78 gl1000 cafe build: http://ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=51461
79 full fairing - current status: Haunted http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=60334
- CYBORG
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Re: Help: Runs worse after timing
Have you checked the advance part of the points plate?
1978 custom GL1000
1977 custom with 1200 engine
1985 gl1200
1977 custom with 1200 engine
1985 gl1200
- ritalz
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Re: Help: Runs worse after timing
My 75 always seems to run better with the points open a little wider, more like 19. You have to go with what works.
Al
2003 Goldwing Daily Rider
1975 Goldwing 'Max'
1984 Goldwing New Bagger Project
1976 Goldwing 'Grocery Getter' Sold
1985 Goldwing Interstate 'NCC-1985' sold
1981 Silverwing Sold
1982 Goldeing Project Sold
1981 Goldwing Parted Out
1983 Goldwing Project Sold
1973 CB500F Long Gone
1966 CL77 First Street Bike
http://www.ngwclub.com/gallery3/index.p ... ans/ritalz
2003 Goldwing Daily Rider
1975 Goldwing 'Max'
1984 Goldwing New Bagger Project
1976 Goldwing 'Grocery Getter' Sold
1985 Goldwing Interstate 'NCC-1985' sold
1981 Silverwing Sold
1982 Goldeing Project Sold
1981 Goldwing Parted Out
1983 Goldwing Project Sold
1973 CB500F Long Gone
1966 CL77 First Street Bike
http://www.ngwclub.com/gallery3/index.p ... ans/ritalz
- salukispeed
- Platinum Member
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- Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:08 am
- Location: Oak Forest Illinois US
Re: Help: Runs worse after timing
Is it worth revisiting the cam timing since the heads were off and so much done. The symptoms you describe could be one tooth off on one or both cams. These Bikes run great at stock settings unless trying to compensate for something out of place
Honda 72 CL100 sold
74 CB750 K4 nice driver
1966 CA77/305 Dream nostalgic driver
84 GL1200I work in progress
1970 CT 70
1982 GL500 Interstate
74 CB750 K4 nice driver
1966 CA77/305 Dream nostalgic driver
84 GL1200I work in progress
1970 CT 70
1982 GL500 Interstate
- Whiskerfish
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Re: Help: Runs worse after timing
Make sure your points are not touching the housing. that bottom right corner can ground out real easy and kill 2 jugs.
"Agreement is not a requirement for Respect" CDR Michael Smith USN (Ret) 2017
"The book is wrong, this whole Conclusion is Fallacious" River Tam
2008 GL1800 IIIA "TH3DOG"
1975/6/7/8/9 Arthur Fulmer Dressed Road bike
1975 Naked Noisy and Nasty in town bike
and a whole garage full of possibilities!!
Psst. oh and by the way CHANGE YOUR BELTS!!!!
"The book is wrong, this whole Conclusion is Fallacious" River Tam
2008 GL1800 IIIA "TH3DOG"
1975/6/7/8/9 Arthur Fulmer Dressed Road bike
1975 Naked Noisy and Nasty in town bike
and a whole garage full of possibilities!!
Psst. oh and by the way CHANGE YOUR BELTS!!!!
- rcmatt007
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Re: Help: Runs worse after timing
my cb360 did that, took forever to figure out the bolt was hitting the cover (always worked perfect when the cover was off). So I reversed the bolt and nutWhiskerfish wrote:Make sure your points are not touching the housing. that bottom right corner can ground out real easy and kill 2 jugs.
-Rodger-
all it takes for evil to prosper is the want of a few good men to do nothing-Edmund Burke
The question is not how much time do you have, it is what you do with the time that you have Gandalf
"One of the greatest dignities of humankind is that each successive generation is invested in the welfare of each new generation." Fred Rodgers
"it takes 10,000 hours to become an expert" ancient saying
78 constantly modified/customized since 1978, BOTM June 2015 de-evolving this very moment viewtopic.php?f=30&t=65511
76 Ltd "cookies bike" ALMOST DONE
79 project, finished, FOR SALE
'86 1200 (Beth's)(FOR SALE) with motorvation sidecar (sidecar sold) , July 2017 BOTM
'17 HD Road king and 08 HD Heritage softail (Beth's) (FOR SALE). I guess you can say we have MBS
all it takes for evil to prosper is the want of a few good men to do nothing-Edmund Burke
The question is not how much time do you have, it is what you do with the time that you have Gandalf
"One of the greatest dignities of humankind is that each successive generation is invested in the welfare of each new generation." Fred Rodgers
"it takes 10,000 hours to become an expert" ancient saying
78 constantly modified/customized since 1978, BOTM June 2015 de-evolving this very moment viewtopic.php?f=30&t=65511
76 Ltd "cookies bike" ALMOST DONE
79 project, finished, FOR SALE
'86 1200 (Beth's)(FOR SALE) with motorvation sidecar (sidecar sold) , July 2017 BOTM
'17 HD Road king and 08 HD Heritage softail (Beth's) (FOR SALE). I guess you can say we have MBS
- groupus
- Titanium Member
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- Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:25 pm
- Location: Lancaster Pa, USA, Earth, Solar System, Milky Way
Re: Help: Runs worse after timing
One of the old points was shorting out so I did check that. I did all of the timing and adjustments after the head change and did check the advancement mechanism while I had the cams out. I'm pretty meticulous, but I could have missed something. I'm going to check all of this over again of course. That is interesting about setting the gap high, is there any reason to do that if my dwell and overlap are right?
Faster, faster, faster, until the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death. ~Hunter Thompson
every now and then, when things are not going to well in the shop, i ask myself why i do it. and the answer is that riding is good....but time in the shop is also good. - CYBORG
78 gl1000 cafe build: http://ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=51461
79 full fairing - current status: Haunted http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=60334
every now and then, when things are not going to well in the shop, i ask myself why i do it. and the answer is that riding is good....but time in the shop is also good. - CYBORG
78 gl1000 cafe build: http://ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=51461
79 full fairing - current status: Haunted http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=60334
- Whiskerfish
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Re: Help: Runs worse after timing
Harbor freight sells those IR temp readers pretty cheap. Be interesting to see what your header temps are at idle.
"Agreement is not a requirement for Respect" CDR Michael Smith USN (Ret) 2017
"The book is wrong, this whole Conclusion is Fallacious" River Tam
2008 GL1800 IIIA "TH3DOG"
1975/6/7/8/9 Arthur Fulmer Dressed Road bike
1975 Naked Noisy and Nasty in town bike
and a whole garage full of possibilities!!
Psst. oh and by the way CHANGE YOUR BELTS!!!!
"The book is wrong, this whole Conclusion is Fallacious" River Tam
2008 GL1800 IIIA "TH3DOG"
1975/6/7/8/9 Arthur Fulmer Dressed Road bike
1975 Naked Noisy and Nasty in town bike
and a whole garage full of possibilities!!
Psst. oh and by the way CHANGE YOUR BELTS!!!!
- groupus
- Titanium Member
- Posts: 310
- Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:25 pm
- Location: Lancaster Pa, USA, Earth, Solar System, Milky Way
Re: Help: Runs worse after timing
I checked the cam timing and it is dead on. Also reset the gap and timing again, and again and again and again... I have actual blisters on my hands from turning the engine over. The #3 header is cold after doing all this but has strong spark.
So carbs? It's hard believe since they came off of a running bike. The #3 carb would have had to clog almost immediately because it never ran right. However, if I take these off, I'm just going to wait until I have the right ones rebuilt. Any other suggestions?
So carbs? It's hard believe since they came off of a running bike. The #3 carb would have had to clog almost immediately because it never ran right. However, if I take these off, I'm just going to wait until I have the right ones rebuilt. Any other suggestions?
Faster, faster, faster, until the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death. ~Hunter Thompson
every now and then, when things are not going to well in the shop, i ask myself why i do it. and the answer is that riding is good....but time in the shop is also good. - CYBORG
78 gl1000 cafe build: http://ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=51461
79 full fairing - current status: Haunted http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=60334
every now and then, when things are not going to well in the shop, i ask myself why i do it. and the answer is that riding is good....but time in the shop is also good. - CYBORG
78 gl1000 cafe build: http://ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=51461
79 full fairing - current status: Haunted http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=60334
- Whiskerfish
- President
- Posts: 36853
- Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2006 9:34 pm
- My Album: http://www.ngwclub.com/gallery/v/wingmans/whiskerfish/
- Location: Norfolk Va
Re: Help: Runs worse after timing
If you know the spark is good then all you need is gas/air and compression.
"Agreement is not a requirement for Respect" CDR Michael Smith USN (Ret) 2017
"The book is wrong, this whole Conclusion is Fallacious" River Tam
2008 GL1800 IIIA "TH3DOG"
1975/6/7/8/9 Arthur Fulmer Dressed Road bike
1975 Naked Noisy and Nasty in town bike
and a whole garage full of possibilities!!
Psst. oh and by the way CHANGE YOUR BELTS!!!!
"The book is wrong, this whole Conclusion is Fallacious" River Tam
2008 GL1800 IIIA "TH3DOG"
1975/6/7/8/9 Arthur Fulmer Dressed Road bike
1975 Naked Noisy and Nasty in town bike
and a whole garage full of possibilities!!
Psst. oh and by the way CHANGE YOUR BELTS!!!!
- jdvorchak
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- Joined: Mon May 25, 2009 8:01 pm
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Re: Help: Runs worse after timing
The symptoms you describe sound like it's not running on all 4 cylinders. Since you have spark, regardless of how clean you think the carbs are, they are not. Now since you know it's #3 you have narrowed it down. Somewhere you missed an internal passage. Remember if you squirt carb cleaner into a hole it should come out somewhere else. Sometimes more than one somewhere else. Slide sticking is another possibility or even a severe vacuum leak.
New users please visit our "Shop Talk" for common tips and help:
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Don't fix it 'til it's broke...
The person with the most toys wins!
If it has wheels or a skirt you can't afford it.
Amateur Radio Station WW9L
71 CL350 with Bingham side car
2021 HD Triglide
2008 HD Dyna Low Rider
83 KZ1100L1 Son totaled it
83 KZ550LTD Shaft sold
Previous bikes: 84 GL1200 STD, 83 KZ550LTD, 83 CB1000, 78 CB400A, 82 CB900F, 79 CB750K, 2001 GL1800, 2000 Dyna Super Glide, 1972 CB350 K4, 1985 GL1200A, 1997 1200 Sportster, 84 GL1200I, 82 Honda CM400E, 81 Suzuki GS650L, 72 Triumph Bonneville 750, 72 Honda CB350, 66(?) Honda 305 Scrambler, 6? Yamaha yz250, 62 650 Matchless (Norton-Villers).
John
http://ngwclub.com/forum/page/ST
Don't fix it 'til it's broke...
The person with the most toys wins!
If it has wheels or a skirt you can't afford it.
Amateur Radio Station WW9L
71 CL350 with Bingham side car
2021 HD Triglide
2008 HD Dyna Low Rider
83 KZ1100L1 Son totaled it
83 KZ550LTD Shaft sold
Previous bikes: 84 GL1200 STD, 83 KZ550LTD, 83 CB1000, 78 CB400A, 82 CB900F, 79 CB750K, 2001 GL1800, 2000 Dyna Super Glide, 1972 CB350 K4, 1985 GL1200A, 1997 1200 Sportster, 84 GL1200I, 82 Honda CM400E, 81 Suzuki GS650L, 72 Triumph Bonneville 750, 72 Honda CB350, 66(?) Honda 305 Scrambler, 6? Yamaha yz250, 62 650 Matchless (Norton-Villers).
John
- groupus
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Re: Help: Runs worse after timing
Thanks, I'm assuming that since it is the #3 carb, which is the first to receive fuel, that it picked up some residual dirt. It also could be a slide since I had to take the right side caps off to install the carbs. Looks like an exciting Friday night for me.
Faster, faster, faster, until the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death. ~Hunter Thompson
every now and then, when things are not going to well in the shop, i ask myself why i do it. and the answer is that riding is good....but time in the shop is also good. - CYBORG
78 gl1000 cafe build: http://ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=51461
79 full fairing - current status: Haunted http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=60334
every now and then, when things are not going to well in the shop, i ask myself why i do it. and the answer is that riding is good....but time in the shop is also good. - CYBORG
78 gl1000 cafe build: http://ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=51461
79 full fairing - current status: Haunted http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=60334
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- Titanium Member
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- Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 11:46 pm
- Location: Springfield, Ill.
Re: Help: Runs worse after timing
Don't know if it applies here, but when setting points on a GL1000, a final check should be made that both points are never closed at the same time. If that happens, engine will still run, but 2 cylinders will fire over-advanced and/or low spark voltage. This happens because both coils share one ballast resistor.
Probably best to follow Randakk's tech tip: http://www.randakksblog.com/ignition-qu ... technique/
Probably best to follow Randakk's tech tip: http://www.randakksblog.com/ignition-qu ... technique/
1981 Goldwing Standard - efi'd, other stuff
- groupus
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- Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:25 pm
- Location: Lancaster Pa, USA, Earth, Solar System, Milky Way
Re: Help: Runs worse after timing
This is the dwell overlap. I have my points set at the high end and the timing light goes out well after the F mark for the other coil.socrace wrote:Don't know if it applies here, but when setting points on a GL1000, a final check should be made that both points are never closed at the same time. If that happens, engine will still run, but 2 cylinders will fire over-advanced and/or low spark voltage. This happens because both coils share one ballast resistor.
Probably best to follow Randakk's tech tip: http://www.randakksblog.com/ignition-qu ... technique/
Faster, faster, faster, until the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death. ~Hunter Thompson
every now and then, when things are not going to well in the shop, i ask myself why i do it. and the answer is that riding is good....but time in the shop is also good. - CYBORG
78 gl1000 cafe build: http://ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=51461
79 full fairing - current status: Haunted http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=60334
every now and then, when things are not going to well in the shop, i ask myself why i do it. and the answer is that riding is good....but time in the shop is also good. - CYBORG
78 gl1000 cafe build: http://ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=51461
79 full fairing - current status: Haunted http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=60334
- groupus
- Titanium Member
- Posts: 310
- Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:25 pm
- Location: Lancaster Pa, USA, Earth, Solar System, Milky Way
Re: Help: Runs worse after timing
I can say with 98.9% certainty that it is not the carbs now. I completely rebuilt the stock carbs with Randakk's full kit, absolute meticulous job, and it still has the exact same issue. #3 header is noticeably cooler and it dies off of idle. Unless I screwed up something on exactly the same cylinder as the other, I'm ruling carbs out. I checked the timing again and it is still on. I'm going to pull the whole points plate off of my other bike and slap it on tomorrow.
What else could possibly be the issue? I have spark, air, and fuel, and they all measure in correct. I'm also going to test and swap the plugs and resistor caps. If this doesn't help, I'm buying a Dyna out of desperation.
Oh, and Happy Memorial Day weekend! Thank You to all who serve!
What else could possibly be the issue? I have spark, air, and fuel, and they all measure in correct. I'm also going to test and swap the plugs and resistor caps. If this doesn't help, I'm buying a Dyna out of desperation.
Oh, and Happy Memorial Day weekend! Thank You to all who serve!
Faster, faster, faster, until the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death. ~Hunter Thompson
every now and then, when things are not going to well in the shop, i ask myself why i do it. and the answer is that riding is good....but time in the shop is also good. - CYBORG
78 gl1000 cafe build: http://ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=51461
79 full fairing - current status: Haunted http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=60334
every now and then, when things are not going to well in the shop, i ask myself why i do it. and the answer is that riding is good....but time in the shop is also good. - CYBORG
78 gl1000 cafe build: http://ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=51461
79 full fairing - current status: Haunted http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=60334
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