Help: Runs worse after timing

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groupus
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Help: Runs worse after timing

#1

Post by groupus »

So let me lay out the specifics here:
completely stock '79 full fairing gl1000 in great condition, 27k miles, sat since '92, many parts replaced by PO in '06 but never started or run. I have done proper long layup procedure to lube things and break the rings loose.
What I did:
New belts, battery, regulator/rectifier, spark plugs gapped, new head gaskets, cam seals, valve seals, valves lapped, valve lash set, new points, and a water pump. All electrical connections cleaned and greased, blade type main fuse. Tank is cleaned with electrolysis, new fuel lines, fuel filter, fuel pump is strong.
The carbs are rebuilt gl1100 carbs that I took off of my other '78 gl1000 custom bike. They are meticulously cleaned and polished with all new gaskets, bench synced, idle screws adjusted to 2.25 turns out for the '79. Not ideal for a 1000, but on the other bike, these carbs ran like a raped ape, a blast to ride. I do have the correct gl1000 carbs that I am working on rebuilding with a full Randakk kit, but in the mean time these carbs are installed to test ride while I get ready for a long trip in less than 3 weeks.

This bike is dead off idle, and although better at speed, it still seems under-powered compared to what I am used to. It idles not so great, but when I take off from a stop, it really chugs and wants to die. It's like a bad version of the "off Idle" problem (but that only applies to '75-77 bikes and carbs). I reset the points gap to .0016 and timed it yesterday, which took forever, but now it is worse. Like it idles lower and starts thrashing and chugging a lot as I let the clutch out. Higher RPMs still seem ok, if I can make it there.
I am going to re-check everything again today, but assuming it is still in spec, what do I do? Do I set timing more advanced? reduce the points gap? Would a Dyna ignition be a silver bullet cure? I'm at my wits' end with this thing.
Faster, faster, faster, until the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death. ~Hunter Thompson

every now and then, when things are not going to well in the shop, i ask myself why i do it. and the answer is that riding is good....but time in the shop is also good. - CYBORG

78 gl1000 cafe build: http://ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=51461

79 full fairing - current status: Haunted http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=60334
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CYBORG
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Re: Help: Runs worse after timing

#2

Post by CYBORG »

Have you checked the advance part of the points plate?
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Re: Help: Runs worse after timing

#3

Post by ritalz »

My 75 always seems to run better with the points open a little wider, more like 19. You have to go with what works.
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Re: Help: Runs worse after timing

#4

Post by salukispeed »

Is it worth revisiting the cam timing since the heads were off and so much done. The symptoms you describe could be one tooth off on one or both cams. These Bikes run great at stock settings unless trying to compensate for something out of place
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Re: Help: Runs worse after timing

#5

Post by Whiskerfish »

Make sure your points are not touching the housing. that bottom right corner can ground out real easy and kill 2 jugs.
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Re: Help: Runs worse after timing

#6

Post by rcmatt007 »

Whiskerfish wrote:Make sure your points are not touching the housing. that bottom right corner can ground out real easy and kill 2 jugs.
my cb360 did that, took forever to figure out the bolt was hitting the cover (always worked perfect when the cover was off). So I reversed the bolt and nut
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Re: Help: Runs worse after timing

#7

Post by groupus »

One of the old points was shorting out so I did check that. I did all of the timing and adjustments after the head change and did check the advancement mechanism while I had the cams out. I'm pretty meticulous, but I could have missed something. I'm going to check all of this over again of course. That is interesting about setting the gap high, is there any reason to do that if my dwell and overlap are right?
Faster, faster, faster, until the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death. ~Hunter Thompson

every now and then, when things are not going to well in the shop, i ask myself why i do it. and the answer is that riding is good....but time in the shop is also good. - CYBORG

78 gl1000 cafe build: http://ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=51461

79 full fairing - current status: Haunted http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=60334
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Re: Help: Runs worse after timing

#8

Post by Whiskerfish »

Harbor freight sells those IR temp readers pretty cheap. Be interesting to see what your header temps are at idle.
"Agreement is not a requirement for Respect" CDR Michael Smith USN (Ret) 2017
"The book is wrong, this whole Conclusion is Fallacious" River Tam
2008 GL1800 IIIA "TH3DOG"
1975/6/7/8/9 Arthur Fulmer Dressed Road bike
1975 Naked Noisy and Nasty in town bike
and a whole garage full of possibilities!!

Psst. oh and by the way CHANGE YOUR BELTS!!!!
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Re: Help: Runs worse after timing

#9

Post by groupus »

I checked the cam timing and it is dead on. Also reset the gap and timing again, and again and again and again... I have actual blisters on my hands from turning the engine over. The #3 header is cold after doing all this but has strong spark.
So carbs? It's hard believe since they came off of a running bike. The #3 carb would have had to clog almost immediately because it never ran right. However, if I take these off, I'm just going to wait until I have the right ones rebuilt. Any other suggestions?
Faster, faster, faster, until the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death. ~Hunter Thompson

every now and then, when things are not going to well in the shop, i ask myself why i do it. and the answer is that riding is good....but time in the shop is also good. - CYBORG

78 gl1000 cafe build: http://ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=51461

79 full fairing - current status: Haunted http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=60334
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Re: Help: Runs worse after timing

#10

Post by Whiskerfish »

If you know the spark is good then all you need is gas/air and compression.
"Agreement is not a requirement for Respect" CDR Michael Smith USN (Ret) 2017
"The book is wrong, this whole Conclusion is Fallacious" River Tam
2008 GL1800 IIIA "TH3DOG"
1975/6/7/8/9 Arthur Fulmer Dressed Road bike
1975 Naked Noisy and Nasty in town bike
and a whole garage full of possibilities!!

Psst. oh and by the way CHANGE YOUR BELTS!!!!
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Re: Help: Runs worse after timing

#11

Post by jdvorchak »

The symptoms you describe sound like it's not running on all 4 cylinders. Since you have spark, regardless of how clean you think the carbs are, they are not. Now since you know it's #3 you have narrowed it down. Somewhere you missed an internal passage. Remember if you squirt carb cleaner into a hole it should come out somewhere else. Sometimes more than one somewhere else. Slide sticking is another possibility or even a severe vacuum leak.
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Re: Help: Runs worse after timing

#12

Post by groupus »

Thanks, I'm assuming that since it is the #3 carb, which is the first to receive fuel, that it picked up some residual dirt. It also could be a slide since I had to take the right side caps off to install the carbs. Looks like an exciting Friday night for me.
Faster, faster, faster, until the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death. ~Hunter Thompson

every now and then, when things are not going to well in the shop, i ask myself why i do it. and the answer is that riding is good....but time in the shop is also good. - CYBORG

78 gl1000 cafe build: http://ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=51461

79 full fairing - current status: Haunted http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=60334
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Re: Help: Runs worse after timing

#13

Post by socrace »

Don't know if it applies here, but when setting points on a GL1000, a final check should be made that both points are never closed at the same time. If that happens, engine will still run, but 2 cylinders will fire over-advanced and/or low spark voltage. This happens because both coils share one ballast resistor.
Probably best to follow Randakk's tech tip: http://www.randakksblog.com/ignition-qu ... technique/
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Re: Help: Runs worse after timing

#14

Post by groupus »

socrace wrote:Don't know if it applies here, but when setting points on a GL1000, a final check should be made that both points are never closed at the same time. If that happens, engine will still run, but 2 cylinders will fire over-advanced and/or low spark voltage. This happens because both coils share one ballast resistor.
Probably best to follow Randakk's tech tip: http://www.randakksblog.com/ignition-qu ... technique/
This is the dwell overlap. I have my points set at the high end and the timing light goes out well after the F mark for the other coil.
Faster, faster, faster, until the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death. ~Hunter Thompson

every now and then, when things are not going to well in the shop, i ask myself why i do it. and the answer is that riding is good....but time in the shop is also good. - CYBORG

78 gl1000 cafe build: http://ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=51461

79 full fairing - current status: Haunted http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=60334
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Re: Help: Runs worse after timing

#15

Post by groupus »

I can say with 98.9% certainty that it is not the carbs now. I completely rebuilt the stock carbs with Randakk's full kit, absolute meticulous job, and it still has the exact same issue. #3 header is noticeably cooler and it dies off of idle. Unless I screwed up something on exactly the same cylinder as the other, I'm ruling carbs out. I checked the timing again and it is still on. I'm going to pull the whole points plate off of my other bike and slap it on tomorrow.

What else could possibly be the issue? I have spark, air, and fuel, and they all measure in correct. I'm also going to test and swap the plugs and resistor caps. If this doesn't help, I'm buying a Dyna out of desperation.



Oh, and Happy Memorial Day weekend! Thank You to all who serve!
Faster, faster, faster, until the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death. ~Hunter Thompson

every now and then, when things are not going to well in the shop, i ask myself why i do it. and the answer is that riding is good....but time in the shop is also good. - CYBORG

78 gl1000 cafe build: http://ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=51461

79 full fairing - current status: Haunted http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=60334
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