Help! 2 dead cyl.

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trat
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Help! 2 dead cyl.

#1

Post by trat »

I have an 83 GL1100 that I am bringing back from the dead. Hasn't run in about 7 to 10 years. I have it running but both cylinders on the right side #3 and #1 are not firing. This is what I have done up to now: new timing belts, adjusted the valves new rad hoses, replaced the rusty gas tank with a clean one and replaced fuel filter, rebuilt the carbs using Roady's DIY and also Howard's book, I did not use Randakk's kit but have since gone back thru the carbs twice more and bought seals from Randakk, The last time I built the carbs I dipped them in a carb cleaner bucket over night for all four one at a time. I have verified that the timing is correct, I have 155 Lbs compression. I have changed the spark plugs and then swapped the ones that were not firing with the ones that were. When I pull the plugwire's one at a time I can hear spark jumping on all four cylinders. I did replace the carb body on #4 cylinder with an early one with a press in idle jet. That cylinder is fine. I swapped plugwires from the good cylinders to the bad and it made no difference. I have rechecked the valve adjustment on those two cylinders and they are correct. I can find no vacuum leaks. There is fuel in both float bowls.I have synchronized the carbs using a Carb Pro 2 they are close. No smoke from the right or left side pipe and no bubbles in the rad so head gaskets should be good. I don't know what else I have missed.... I am thinking that the problem is still in the carbs and I am about to give up and go to a single carb setup although I really don't want to.....I would like to keep the bike as original as possible, not that I am trying to do a restoration but just would like to be a nice daily rider. Any suggestions would be appreciated. I am stumped!
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fish
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Re: Help! 2 dead cyl.

#2

Post by fish »

First Trat I wanna say welcome!
You are certainly persistent & kudos to you for not giving up
you have the 1 & 3 plug wires crossed. swappum
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trat
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Re: Help! 2 dead cyl.

#3

Post by trat »

fish wrote:First Trat I wanna say welcome!
You are certainly persistent & kudos to you for not giving up
you have the 1 & 3 plug wires crossed. swappum
tried that all ready no change but thanks
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Re: Help! 2 dead cyl.

#4

Post by robin1731 »

Did you do a leakdown?
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trat
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Re: Help! 2 dead cyl.

#5

Post by trat »

robin1731 wrote:Did you do a leakdown?
yes I did before and after the valve adjustment, That has been a couple of months ago before I got the bike running, I don't remember the exact readings but it was all good. I haven't done a leak down sine I got it running though! I did run a compression check and it was all around 155# and at the time the battery was a little low.
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Re: Help! 2 dead cyl.

#6

Post by fish »

anim-cheers1
Timothy Mark Fisher
Catalina Arizona
"ride it.. don't be one of those guys who will fix it 'til it's broken" (JDVorchek)
"It is not logic or economics that drive a motorcyclist but passion!" (bugdaddy66)
"I fully agree with fish, well at least 27% of the time."(Casper)
"Why do you have to ruin a perfectly good thread with common sense"(Placerville)
"my best guess for an answer would be a stream of complex expletives" (Transitman)
"I like a cold beer with my beer" (OldeWing)
"Most of us like the sport of wrenching too." (fred camper)
"Now go ride the heck out of it, til mother says do your chores"(Gowing)
"I agree with Fish" (Salukispeed)
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Re: Help! 2 dead cyl.

#7

Post by ericheath »

WAG/suggestion - sounds like you have fuel in the bowls, spark at plugs, compression's good--- is spark at the right time??Wires get switched somewhere else? Pulse generators? I seem to recall similar symptoms from a locating pin being off in the ignition rotor in the back of the engine. Firing order is 1-3-2-4. If it was 180 out, would that cause 2-4 to fire, but 1-3 be on the exhaust stroke???
Whatever I suggest here should be given ample time for a moderator to delicately correct. I apologize in advance.
77 WING, 1200 engine with 77 heads, cams, gl1100 foot pegs, Magna V65 front end, 764A carbs, [-gone Suzuki M109 monoshock--, replaced with gl1100 shocks] gl 1200 swing arm, gl1500 final drive, wheel and rear brakes Valkyrie seat, Meanstreak tank, Sportster pipes, Power Arc ignition off crank.
77 Wing. black
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trat
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Re: Help! 2 dead cyl.

#8

Post by trat »

ericheath wrote:WAG/suggestion - sounds like you have fuel in the bowls, spark at plugs, compression's good--- is spark at the right time??Wires get switched somewhere else? Pulse generators? I seem to recall similar symptoms from a locating pin being off in the ignition rotor in the back of the engine. Firing order is 1-3-2-4. If it was 180 out, would that cause 2-4 to fire, but 1-3 be on the exhaust stroke???
hummmm here's something to think about.......how can I tell? The pulse generator advance was stuck when I first got the bike. I pulled the swing arm and took the cover off and was able to get it moving with out disassembling by putting a wrench on the center bolt of the rotor and applying pressure back and fourth.
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ericheath
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Re: Help! 2 dead cyl.

#9

Post by ericheath »

Do you have a manual? Even going to a parts reference will show you the parts. I haven't had my 83 apart there but there is a pin under the rotor. Remove cover, and rotor and see if the pin is there and aligned with the slot in the back of the rotor. If you removed the rotor, you may not have noticed the pin, didn't get it aligned----and you wouldn't be the first. If your swingarm is back in, there must be another way to test if spark is coming at the right time. Rotate until you know #1 is on the compression stroke, when intake valve has just closed. Spark should occur about the same time as the valve closing.
Whatever I suggest here should be given ample time for a moderator to delicately correct. I apologize in advance.
77 WING, 1200 engine with 77 heads, cams, gl1100 foot pegs, Magna V65 front end, 764A carbs, [-gone Suzuki M109 monoshock--, replaced with gl1100 shocks] gl 1200 swing arm, gl1500 final drive, wheel and rear brakes Valkyrie seat, Meanstreak tank, Sportster pipes, Power Arc ignition off crank.
77 Wing. black
83 Wing, in pieces
"Continuing education is important even if the subject matter is fairly useless (as in this case)."---Greg Foresi
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Re: Help! 2 dead cyl.

#10

Post by bthacker »

It sounds like you have a timing issue but to test the carbs you can remove the air filter and spray a little starter fluid into each of the carbs on the dead side. If for some reason the carbs are not passing fuel into the cylinders this will cause them to fire for the time you are spraying the starter fluid. Not to much starting fluid. Most cans you can use a straw on and direct the starting fluid into the carb that is not working. If this does nothing and you know you have fire and the valves are working right then it has almost got to be a timing issue. Have you removed the valve cover and made sure the valves are opening and closing and at the proper time?
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Re: Help! 2 dead cyl.

#11

Post by olchris »

bthacker wrote:It sounds like you have a timing issue but to test the carbs you can remove the air filter and spray a little starter fluid into each of the carbs on the dead side. If for some reason the carbs are not passing fuel into the cylinders this will cause them to fire for the time you are spraying the starter fluid. Not to much starting fluid. Most cans you can use a straw on and direct the starting fluid into the carb that is not working. If this does nothing and you know you have fire and the valves are working right then it has almost got to be a timing issue. Have you removed the valve cover and made sure the valves are opening and closing and at the proper time?
I agree 100% with this and if doesn't fire or run momentarily then plan B :

pull the plugs and fit back into caps and lay/contact onto a CLEAN metal surface and turn over or start and observe if there is actual spark at the suss plugs.....

Better still pull all four plugs and contact to earth (-) and determine that all are sparking...... If not go back before plan A, to the wiring circuit and connections..

If there all sparking "correctly" and .....and you have set the valves .... done a leakdown test... know valves are OK.... the carbs should be good... then there is not much else to look at except the timing belt position, keyway, dot marks, somewhere in there could be a problem...

The old story goes "if its got fuel and spark it will run"........... that's if they dance at the same time...
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ericheath
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Re: Help! 2 dead cyl.

#12

Post by ericheath »

Agree, there have been quite a few plugs lately that have been bad, new-right outta da box. Your initial description says you had spark but just jumping the wires, not necessarily the plug gap. You could do that at the same time as testing the timing.
Whatever I suggest here should be given ample time for a moderator to delicately correct. I apologize in advance.
77 WING, 1200 engine with 77 heads, cams, gl1100 foot pegs, Magna V65 front end, 764A carbs, [-gone Suzuki M109 monoshock--, replaced with gl1100 shocks] gl 1200 swing arm, gl1500 final drive, wheel and rear brakes Valkyrie seat, Meanstreak tank, Sportster pipes, Power Arc ignition off crank.
77 Wing. black
83 Wing, in pieces
"Continuing education is important even if the subject matter is fairly useless (as in this case)."---Greg Foresi
trat
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Re: Help! 2 dead cyl.

#13

Post by trat »

ericheath wrote:Agree, there have been quite a few plugs lately that have been bad, new-right outta da box. Your initial description says you had spark but just jumping the wires, not necessarily the plug gap. You could do that at the same time as testing the timing.
Was thinking about the timing.....if the pulse Gen was bad it should affect 2 cyl from the same coil......this being cyl1 and 3 those are from 2 different coil on left fires #3 and #4 cyl, coil on right fires #1 and #2 Am I thinking correctly?
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Re: Help! 2 dead cyl.

#14

Post by gltriker »

trat wrote:
ericheath wrote:Agree, there have been quite a few plugs lately that have been bad, new-right outta da box. Your initial description says you had spark but just jumping the wires, not necessarily the plug gap. You could do that at the same time as testing the timing.
Was thinking about the timing.....if the pulse Gen was bad it should affect 2 cyl from the same coil......this being cyl1 and 3 those are from 2 different coil on left fires #3 and #4 cyl, coil on right fires #1 and #2 Am I thinking correctly?
Yes. You are thinking correctly.
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ericheath
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Re: Help! 2 dead cyl.

#15

Post by ericheath »

Right, I'm trying to wrap my brain around whether the timing can be out to cause this to occur at the wrong points in the cycle so 1&3 were not on compression, but 2&4 were. I don't think it is. I can't make it happen in my mind. If it was placed off the pin, with the bolt on, it might be possible to favor spark for just two, but that's a long shot. I think it was a build by Chewy who ran into this. In his case, I believe he forgot to install the pin altogether, so his timing was off just a little.

I would be sure you're getting a good spark from the plug itself next. Then as someone above mentioned, if you do, force something into the throats to see if it will fire.

Another check, is with T1 on the marks, is the "up" marking up on both pulleys? What procedure did you use to set the valves? If you had the wrong T1? The book method says to make sure the first set of valves are at T1 when the intake valve on #1 has just closed. If you adjusted the valves for the wrong T1 mark would that be enough to throw the 1 and 3 valves out of sync, but not 2-4?
Whatever I suggest here should be given ample time for a moderator to delicately correct. I apologize in advance.
77 WING, 1200 engine with 77 heads, cams, gl1100 foot pegs, Magna V65 front end, 764A carbs, [-gone Suzuki M109 monoshock--, replaced with gl1100 shocks] gl 1200 swing arm, gl1500 final drive, wheel and rear brakes Valkyrie seat, Meanstreak tank, Sportster pipes, Power Arc ignition off crank.
77 Wing. black
83 Wing, in pieces
"Continuing education is important even if the subject matter is fairly useless (as in this case)."---Greg Foresi
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