Right cylinder bank blowing cold from exhaust

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Pb9717
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Right cylinder bank blowing cold from exhaust

#1

Post by Pb9717 »

This is a repost from my restomod Thing 2 post....posting here because I'm at a a loss and need assistance....



I've comes across quandary I'm having a challenge diagnosing.

Upon startup this evening, I am still getting the odd knock of an unbalanced engine, or cylinders not firing. Here are the symptoms.

- Cold exhaust from right exhaust pipe.
- engine sound as if some cylinders are not firing
- hot exhaust from left side exhaust pipe
- no change in idle when right hand wires are pulled.
- Right hand carbs show fuel in bowls via back out of drain screw. both had gas weeping when backed out partially
- Separated wires on right side from each other to test individually. Both show spark at end of plug when removed and observed. Both make arcing sound when connector put in proximity of installed plug.
- If I remove the left hand bank spark plug connections she immediately shuts down. So it appears the left side is the only working cylinders.
- compression is 150-180 psi in every cylinder
- engine has just over 22K, and was a single owner bike.

So.... I have spark, I have air, I have fuel in the bowls on the right side....so.....

WHY IS THE RIGHT EXHAUST COLD? WHY IS THERE NO IGNITION AS FAR AS I CAN TELL ON THAT SIDE, BUT I HAVE SPARK/FUEL/AIR? WHAT AM I MISSING?

My gut tells me that the other issue with the rattling on deceleration may become minimized if the bike is running properly.


OK experts.......I'm asking for your help. I'm at a loss.
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Re: Right cylinder bank blowing cold from exhaust

#2

Post by gltriker »

quote=gltriker post_id=811774 time=1664862287 user_id=14323]
Pb9717 wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 9:04 pm Thing2.jpegOk and now for something completely different......



- Cold exhaust from right exhaust pipe.
- engine sound as if some cylinders are not firing
- hot exhaust from left side exhaust pipe
- no change in idle when right hand wires are pulled. have you pulled those spark plugs out of the cylinder head
- Right hand carbs show fuel in bowls via back out of drain screw. both had gas weeping when backed out partially
- Separated wires on right side from each other to test individually. Both show spark at end of plug when removed and observed. Both make arcing sound when connector put in proximity of installed plug. .again- have you pulled those spark plugs out of the cylinder head
- If I remove the left hand bank spark plug connections she immediately shuts down. So it appears the left side is the only working cylinders.
- compression is 150-180 psi in every cylinder confirmed with a cylinder compression testing gauge?
-

So.... I have spark, I have air, I have fuel in the bowls on the right side....so.....

WHY IS THE RIGHT EXHAUST COLD? WHY IS THERE NO IGNITION (combustion heat?) AS FAR AS I CAN TELL ON THAT SIDE, BUT I HAVE SPARK/FUEL/AIR? WHAT AM I MISSING?
2 Cylinders' Compression?
My gut tells me that the other issue with the rattling on deceleration may become minimized if the bike is running properly.

If you had indicated there is no compression in those unresponsive cylinders I would immediately say their camshaft timing belt was broken. Remove the spark plugs in the unresponsive cylinders and retest for compression test numbers.
Good compression test numbers, again? Yes? No?

Didn't you say you had dynamically engine idle speed synchronized the carburetors on this engine with a carb tune pro?
Yes? Go back and dynamically recheck if the carburetors' engine idle speed synchronization readings have changed. don't resist... ;)
[/quote]
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Re: Right cylinder bank blowing cold from exhaust

#3

Post by gltriker »

I've gone back to the Thing 2 topic and closely studied whether the timing belts were replaced. I find yes they had been replaced , but how long before or after the engine had been first time started, was running smoothly, then started acting up?
Had the valve lash clearances been checked and the individual cylinder compression testing already been acconplished before the engine started running oddly?

What I'm getting at, even though you were able to rotate the crankshaft to bring each cylinder up to top dead center on its compression stroke, and perform compression testing and engine idle speed synchronization of the carburetors with your carb pro tune rig, do you know whether that side of the now unresponsive cylinders of the engine's camshaft pulley had ever been removed and reinstalled?

Do you process what I am putting out there?
If you find that side timing belt is still intact, the timing pulley and camshaft may not be securely indexed with the woodruff key presently.
Here's an example :shock: .
15895414475679194821827367959074.jpg
15895414475679194821827367959074.jpg (100.27 KiB) Viewed 706 times
The exhaust valve in one cylinder or both are not closing, the crankshaft is still turning and the pistons are still doing the air pump function. No cylinder compression though.
Intake valves may be damaged too.
Check the valve lash clearances on that side of the engine. If a valve has suffered contact damage with a piston, "bent", its lash clearance will be greatly increased.

Simply checking the right side valves' lash clearances will be very quick and easy.

An internal combustion engine's 3 requirements to start and run are:

1 Cyĺlinder *Compression*
2 Fuel source
3 Ignition source
Last edited by gltriker on Wed Oct 05, 2022 10:38 am, edited 6 times in total.
Cliff (74yrs ;) )

Keep your eyes and ears open and you'll learn something new, everyday. tumb2

New users please visit our "Shop Talk" for common tips and help: <---jdvorchak
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RE: a thorough fuel tank cleaning
"And your carbs will thank you. They no longer live down stream from a sewage plant." -gregforesi tumb2
"Can't see the paint when your looking thru the handlebars..........." -Oldewing ;)
"I'd rather Ride than Shine" -RAT tumb2 Me Too!!

Cliff

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Re: Right cylinder bank blowing cold from exhaust

#4

Post by pidjones »

Isn't the fuel pump driven from the right side cam still?
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Re: Right cylinder bank blowing cold from exhaust

#5

Post by Pb9717 »

gltriker wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 7:20 am I've gone back to the Thing 2 topic and closely studied whether the timing belts were replaced. I find yes they had been replaced , but how long before or after the engine had been first time started, was running smoothly, then started acting up?
Had the valve lash clearances been checked and the individual cylinder compression testing already been acconplished before the engine started running oddly? VALVE CLEARANCES WERE CHECKED BEFORE THE BELTS WERE REPLACED.ENGINE BEHAVIOR IS THE SAME, BEFORE AND AFTER BELT REPLACEMENT. COMPRESSION CHECKED PRIOR TO, AND AFTER BELT SWAP. ALWAYS EXCELLENT, ENGINE ONLY HAS 22K ON IT.

What I'm getting at, even though you were able to rotate the crankshaft to bring each cylinder up to top dead center on its compression stroke, and perform compression testing and engine idle speed synchronization of the carburetors with your carb pro tune rig, do you know whether that side of the now unresponsive cylinders of the engine's camshaft pulley had ever been removed and reinstalled? I CANNOT DETERMINE THAT AS THE COVERS ARE BACK ON, BUT THE SYMPTOMS ARE THE SAME AS BEFORE THE REPLACEMENT

Do you process what I am putting out there?
If you find that side timing belt is still intact, the timing pulley and camshaft may not be securely indexed with the woodruff key presently.
Here's an example :shock: .
15895414475679194821827367959074.jpg

The exhaust valve in one cylinder or both are not closing, the crankshaft is still turning and the pistons are still doing the air pump function. No cylinder compression though.WE HAVE EXCELLENT COMPRESSION
Intake valves may be damaged too.
Check the valve lash clearances on that side of the engine. If a valve has suffered contact damage with a piston, "bent", its lash clearance will be greatly increased. ARE THESE ENGINES SUSCEPTIBLE TO VALVE DAMAGE IF TIMING BELTS ARE INSTALLED IMPROPERLY? CLEARANCES ARE THAT TIGHT?
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Re: Right cylinder bank blowing cold from exhaust

#6

Post by gltriker »

oooooh, yeah! It is an "interference" engine.
I believe an error of 2 timing belt/pulley teeth will cause piston to valves contact.
Generally valves are bent off center of their valve seat.
Pistons can be fractured too if the engine is running fast enough when the contact occurs. Especially when a valve head breaks off its valve stem .
Gets ugly real fast

Respectfully inquiring
How does,
snip-" ALWAYS EXCELLENT, ENGINE ONLY HAS 22K ON IT."
Indicate the 40 years old engine, itself, is mechanically excellent internally?

An internal combustion engine's 3 requirements to start and run are:

1 Cylinder *Compression*
2 Fuel source
3 Ignition source
Last edited by gltriker on Wed Oct 05, 2022 10:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Cliff (74yrs ;) )

Keep your eyes and ears open and you'll learn something new, everyday. tumb2

New users please visit our "Shop Talk" for common tips and help: <---jdvorchak
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^^^^^^^click up here^^^^^ :oldies

RE: a thorough fuel tank cleaning
"And your carbs will thank you. They no longer live down stream from a sewage plant." -gregforesi tumb2
"Can't see the paint when your looking thru the handlebars..........." -Oldewing ;)
"I'd rather Ride than Shine" -RAT tumb2 Me Too!!

Cliff

'75 GL1000 home built trike; http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=39996
October,2017 BOTM :shock: https://nakedgoldwingsclub.com/forum/page/Welcome

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Re: Right cylinder bank blowing cold from exhaust

#7

Post by redglbx »

If you have a good fat blue spark at the plugs and good compression then in my opinion you have plugged low speed jets. I am assuming you have 1100 carbs so with that said you should be able to squirt carb cleaner in the low speed jet and have it come out of the idle screw hole with the idle screw removed. And also out the idle discharge Hole with the idle screw installed. Also have you verified that the slides move freely in the caps? I don’t think that is the case but worth checking.

As has been said here many times most carb problems are electrical and is 100% true, so I would also ask if you’ve checked across your spark plug caps, they should measure less than 5k ohms when measured across them when they are removed from the wires.
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Re: Right cylinder bank blowing cold from exhaust

#8

Post by Pb9717 »

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/KwRPERCwvkA

The issue is spark.

Bike started on right hand cylinder bank alone after I disconnected the left banks ignition wires. Reconnected left side wires. Engine runs normally ( see video)

Recreated the issue this evening with right bank staying cold/not igniting on regular start procedure. Disconnected left, right side started up. Reconnected all wires. Engine runs normal. There’s no fueling issue. Carbs work when either side has spark. Idles beautifully, accelerates smoothly when all cylinders firing as well. Drove today once all cylinders were firing. Rode great. Like it did after carb sync.

So, replacing wires, coils, plug ends. Expect this will solve the issue.
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Re: Right cylinder bank blowing cold from exhaust

#9

Post by gltriker »

🤔
Cliff (74yrs ;) )

Keep your eyes and ears open and you'll learn something new, everyday. tumb2

New users please visit our "Shop Talk" for common tips and help: <---jdvorchak
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^^^^^^^click up here^^^^^ :oldies

RE: a thorough fuel tank cleaning
"And your carbs will thank you. They no longer live down stream from a sewage plant." -gregforesi tumb2
"Can't see the paint when your looking thru the handlebars..........." -Oldewing ;)
"I'd rather Ride than Shine" -RAT tumb2 Me Too!!

Cliff

'75 GL1000 home built trike; http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=39996
October,2017 BOTM :shock: https://nakedgoldwingsclub.com/forum/page/Welcome

previous rides:
1953 H-D Servi-car, naked, 1969-1978 (serial#53G1559 committed to memory!)
1980 CB900 Custom (triked) 1997-2003 .... R.I.P.
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Re: Right cylinder bank blowing cold from exhaust

#10

Post by Sidecar Bob »

1) Each coil provides spark for one left cylinder and one right cylinder so an ignition issue will not cause one side of the engine to not run. Both cylinders on one side not running indicates a fuel problem.

2) In a properly functioning wasted spark ignition coil (as supplied by Honda) there is no connection between the secondary (high voltage) winding and ground so if you disconnect the spark plug wire from one plug the one on the other side should stop working too. (I believe some aftermarket coils may have a ground connection but I'm not sure)
The only thing I can think of that would allow one side to fire while the other isn't connected is if your spark plug wires are in really bad condition and the spark is being bypassed before it gets to the plug on the dead side.

But I would look at things that could cause both cylinders on one side to stop working at the same time like a loose lock nut on the left/right balance adjustment of the carbs.
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Re: Right cylinder bank blowing cold from exhaust

#11

Post by Pb9717 »

It is NOT SPARK. Its fuel. Right hand side solo'd starts with starter spray. I put in different GL1500 coils, new wires. Spark is there and plentiful. Still wouldn't start on right bank alone. I pulled the carbs. Found debris in the bowl of # 1. Also think slides may have been sticking. Took things apart. cleared all holes. Cleaned thoroughly. Reassembled carb bank. I'm cleaning up and spot painting the engine casing before I reinstall the carbs. Good opportunity to make things nice n clean looking. I'll also check the lift on the sliders with a shopvac ( from a distance) to make sure they're lifting properly. I'm losing my zeal for the project and really do want it to be what I envisioned. A duplicate of Thing 1. I recently balanced the carbs on Thing 1, and installed a Puig Windscreen. Rode it for 3 hours. magical. I know how these engines should feel, sound, and run. I'm gonna make thing 2 a success. Just gotta persevere.
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Re: Right cylinder bank blowing cold from exhaust

#12

Post by Rednaxs60 »

Not having a carb model Gold Wing, have an '85 Limited edition FI model, have been going through this thread and the OEM service manual. Used to do a lot of carb work in the '60s and early '70s at my father's garage. Synchronization of snowmobile carbs in the day were also a PITA.

I have been chasing a very, very slight RPM stumble for a few weeks. Scoured the OEM service manuals. I can balance the left/right cylinder banks but not the individual cylinders. The cylinder bank balance was off. I used the individual cylinders to give me an indication that the cylinder banks were balanced by pulling the plug wires and listening to the engine RPM change. The change in engine RPM when the plug wires of the same coil were pulled could be changed with the cylinder bank balance. The vacuum gauges were used as a corroboration tool. The '85 1200 FI model is allowed a maximum of 1.5" of Hg differential between cylinder banks.

Read up on the 1100 cylinder balance and #3 cylinder carb is the base for this adjustment as it apparently cannot be adjusted. The manual also indicates that you can have a vacuum differential of 50 mm (2.0") of Hg or less.

You have mentioned that the right cylinder bank is colder than the left cylinder bank. This would indicate that the left cylinder bank is taking the load and the right cylinder bank is coasting so to speak.

Considering that #3 cylinder is the base for the cylinder synchronization, Numbers 1/2/4 cylinders must match or be very close to the #3 cylinder vacuum. Question - can you confirm that the #3 carb is the one that cannot be adjusted and is used as the base carb for carb synchronization?

You mention that it is a fuel issue and I agree, but the fuel issue is directly related to the ability to sync the carbs correctly. I would speculate that numbers 2 and 4 cylinder are getting too much fuel, and numbers 1 and 3 are not. Have to get the base carb/cylinder correct, then the rest.

A way ahead for me would be to make sure that numbers 1 and 3 cylinder vacuum are the same or within spec. Once this is done, synchronize numbers 2 and 4 cylinder vacuum to #3 cylinder vacuum. If this cannot be done, more work is required.

Using the engine sound as a guide when pulling the plug wires is very useful and can assist in dialing in your engine very well. Using the engine sound and RPM change when plug wires are pulled can balance the cylinders. #1 and #2 cylinders should affect the engine RPM the same, as should #3 and #4 because #1 and #2 cylinders share the same coil as do #3 and #4 cylinders.

Don't worry about the vacuum readings at this time, just want to get each cylinder pulling its own weight so to speak. Adjust idle to the OEM spec of 950 +/- 100 RPM as required. When this is done, if it can be, check the vacuum readings and compare with the base carb/cylinder. Should be able to tell what carb(s) have to be looked at, could be the base carb as well.

Just a few thoughts from the bleachers. Good luck.
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Re: Right cylinder bank blowing cold from exhaust

#13

Post by pidjones »

Carb balance is primarily for balanced and even idle. Once the diaphragms start lifting the pistons, it doesn't really effect anything. If one side is cold after running, say 1/4 throttle, then you have a much different problem. Mysterious plugging of vacuum and fuel passages do happen. We once found a flashlight and a very burnt rag in a cyclotron beam line.
"Love 'em all.... let God sort 'em out!"
Ex 2006 GL1800 - the Black Pearl SOLD! to make room for:
2021 Can-Am Spyder RT Limited Dark Chalk Metallic
1975 Red GL1000 project - ex Pistol Pete project
1972 Triumph T150V Trident rescue - finished and FOR SALE!
1976 Yamaha RD400c
1978 GL1000 with '75 engine - the Hunley
Ex 1978 GL1000
Ex 1979 GL1000
Ex '79 CB750F rat bike
Ex '86 SEi
Ex '77 GL1000
Ex '76 RD400
Ex '72 Penton 125 set up for flat track
Ex '73 RD250
Ex '68 TR6C - chopped
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Re: Right cylinder bank blowing cold from exhaust

#14

Post by redglbx »

PB, again, since you have the carbs off, sand the straw to a point on your carb cleaner and spray it into the low speed jets, you should then see carb cleaner come out of the idle screw hole with the screw removed. If it doesn’t flow out, you have a plug-in the body passage someplace that must be cleared. Once cleared then set the idle mix screws 3 turns out from lightly bottomed. Re-sync things and just ride it !
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1976 LTD restored
1980 CBX , in the que, to fix the ignorant heavy handed owner
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Re: Right cylinder bank blowing cold from exhaust

#15

Post by gltriker »

addressed to Ernest and "Cam" (my nick name given to redglbx ;) )

Although I've been somewhat involved in this thread, I had not processed this "Thing" s engine, a GL1100, employs ignition not driven off the left hand cyĺinder head camshaft; the GL1000 configuration.
Also, if I am correct the 1100 carburetors' pilot adjuster screws are very difficult to access under the carburetor body? To attempt to perform an idle drop pilot screw adjustment to determine if the slow fuel jet and pilot fuel delivery tube in the carburetor throat are not restricted is VERY difficult?

AND the slow fuel jets are screw-in removable on one or two of the GL1100 carburetor model specs and not easily removable (it's a pressed in slow fuel jet ) on the other one or two carburetor model spec. The pressed-in configuration slow fuel jet can be removed, though?
"Pulled out" with a screw.

The GL1100 carburetors don't utilize a diaphragm for the control of the vacuum piston and the vacuum piston cover doesn't have a visible "button" on their top surface.
Am I correct in all those "observations?"
Last edited by gltriker on Fri Oct 14, 2022 4:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Cliff (74yrs ;) )

Keep your eyes and ears open and you'll learn something new, everyday. tumb2

New users please visit our "Shop Talk" for common tips and help: <---jdvorchak
http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/page/ST
^^^^^^^click up here^^^^^ :oldies

RE: a thorough fuel tank cleaning
"And your carbs will thank you. They no longer live down stream from a sewage plant." -gregforesi tumb2
"Can't see the paint when your looking thru the handlebars..........." -Oldewing ;)
"I'd rather Ride than Shine" -RAT tumb2 Me Too!!

Cliff

'75 GL1000 home built trike; http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=39996
October,2017 BOTM :shock: https://nakedgoldwingsclub.com/forum/page/Welcome

previous rides:
1953 H-D Servi-car, naked, 1969-1978 (serial#53G1559 committed to memory!)
1980 CB900 Custom (triked) 1997-2003 .... R.I.P.
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